There are a few different ways to evaluate it. I remember when Shaka Smart was going to be the next big thing. I'm not saying he deserves the title, but just as an example of not living up to the hype.
Which Coach Deserves the Title of "Biggest Underachiever"?
- Thread starter Random UK Fan
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That’s who I was going to post. He built his whole career off a single tourney run. He’s never won anything
Shaka is absolutely underachieving at a high level given the talent he's had roll through Austin.
Couple others that probably merit mention are Andy Enfield (USC), Sean Miller (Zona), Mike White (UF), Josh Pastner (GT), and Tom Crean (UGA).
I would have had Avery Johnson up there with Shaka had Bama kept him another year.
Couple others that probably merit mention are Andy Enfield (USC), Sean Miller (Zona), Mike White (UF), Josh Pastner (GT), and Tom Crean (UGA).
I would have had Avery Johnson up there with Shaka had Bama kept him another year.
It's definitely Sean Miller. He's had top recruiting classes almost every year along w major college stars like Stanley, Gordon, Hollis-Jefferson, Ayton etc...he has completely shit the bed on getting deep in the tournament. Way too much talent to not have better results.
Mike White should not be up there in any capacity with any of those other guys. He's only been at Florida 4 years & has made the tourney 3 years with 1 elite eight & a 5-3 record in the tournament. UF is essentially a top 25-30 team/program so far since he took over, which is normally right where we recruit. Additionally his first classes were nothing special, so it's not like we have been loaded with high level talent these last few years or multiple top 10 classes.
Now the 2019-2020 roster finally has some elite talent bringing in 2 legit 5 stars and Blackshear, so if the team under performs this season then you have a much stronger argument, as that has gotta fall on White. But for now you are likely the only one that would that would mention Mike White as under performing relative to the talent he brings in...
It’s not just about the classes he brought in, it’s also about the existing talent on the roster.
Sure, he had a solid tourney run in 2017 when y’all crushed a depleted and flawed UVA team and had the epic buzzer beater against Wisconsin. But tourney success isn’t the only way to measure a coach.
Since White took over, UF has averaged over 13 losses a season. Frankly, he’s lucky UF even made the Dance this past year with 15 losses on Selection Sunday. He’s finished in the bottom half of the SEC standings in 2 of 4 years.
And that’s with guys like Kasey Hill (5 star), Devin Robinson (5 star) Dorian Finney Smith (5 star), Chris Chiozza (top 50), Brandone Francis (top 40), Andrew Nembhard (5 star), Keyontae Johnson (top 70), and Kevaughn Allen (top 70) all on the roster.
Yeah, really been lacking talent down in Gainesville.
Crean aint even coached a game yet and you’re already giving him crap
He coached at UGA last year. They went 11-21 and 2-16 in SEC play. That’s with Nic Claxton on the team.
But they did find a way to beat Shaka’s Longhorns hahaha. Oh and won in Gainesville too!
It’s hard to put Shaka in there when his expectations came from overachieving.
I think Tubby Smith deserves a nomination
I think Tubby Smith deserves a nomination
His expectations came from luck, not overachieving. His team got hot for three weeks.
One fluky tournament run doesn't equal "doing more." All he did was sneak into the tournament as one of the last 2-3 at-large bids and then pull a couple of upsets. He never even won the conference.
You know what VCU was going into the 2011 Dance? 23-11 and 4th in the CAA. They lost to several sub-150 teams that season. They were 84th on KenPom heading into the Dance, and even after the run to the Final Four they still weren't a top 50 KenPom team.
Since that miracle run, Shaka is 2-6 in NCAAT games.
Jeff Capel won the CAA regular season at VCU.
Anthony Grant won the CAA regular season (three times) at VCU.
Shaka never won either the CAA regular season or the A-10 regular season while at VCU.
He did manage to win the A-10 tourney in 2015 despite finishing 4th in the regular season...and then promptly lost in the 1st round of the NCAAT as a higher seed. Then he left for UT and Will Wade took over, winning the A-10 in his first season at VCU.
I never thought Sean Miller was a great coach but when you pull in the recruiting classes he has had and has nothing to show for it; it absolutely has to be him.
Shaka would be a distant second.
Shaka would be a distant second.
Calipari and Self come to mind. Both should have more than one title at their respective schools.
Why should Self have more titles than Izzo? Izzo generally brings in the same level of talent and has been at MSU a decade longer than Self's been at KU.
Izzo does not recruit on KUs level consistently and Self seems to always be a 1 seed. If Izzo has been a 1 seed like 10 times with only one title I agree. Izzo has gotten MSU to a FF as a 5 and 7 seed and has consistently beaten higher rated teams in the tourney. Self hasn’t. I think Izzo has been a 1 seed 4 times. FF 3 of those years and a title.
Izzo had 3 great chances at a title decimated by just brutal late season injuries. Lucas tearing Achilles in 2010 (would have beaten butler and a weak duke team awaited). Appling our starting point guard broke his wrist/hand bones right before the tourney in 2014. Lost in E8 to a historically weak FF field. MSU likely wins it all season f he’s healthy. Last year 2 of MSUs 3 leading scorers go down with injuries and a key sub goes down as well. A healthy MSU would have had a great shot to win it all.
I don't know if Mike White should be up there but he has definitely disappointed considering what Billy Donovan was able to do at Florida prior to his arrival. 3 Elite 8's and a Final 4's right before White showed up. White goes 0'fer in 15' and 16', makes the Elite 8 in 17' followed by two consecutive early exits. All while averaging over 13 loses per year.
It's hard to beat higher seeded teams in the tourney when, like you said, he's always a 1 or 2 seed. But many of his 1 and 2 seeds didn't have overwhelming talent. What tends to happen is they'll start the season ranked somewhere around 10th, he'll win 30 games and earn a 1 or 2, then lose in the elite 8 and it's labeled an underachievement.
Let's also not forget that, practically every year, he enters the tourney without one or multiple top players. When you consider the players that he's actually had at his disposal, I don't think there's much of a disparity at all in talent level between the two coaches. Maybe in Izzo's early years.
You would be correct if that first 0-fer year in 2015 was under Mike White. But it wasn’t, you are off a season as that was actually Billy D’s last season. Not only that it was UF’s first losing season in 17 years.
So essentially the team White inherited was already a team that couldn’t make the NCAA tournament & finished with a losing record.
There just wasn’t much talent left after the 2014 season bc that team was very senior-heavy, and White’s first class wasn’t anything special due to the transition. While we didn’t make the NCAA tourney in 2016, we clearly improved & at least made the NIT.
So this was not a case of 4 straight top 8 finishes or a program that White just ran into the ground 2 straight years right away. The team actually improved in 2016 in the first year under White w/a roster that was very similar to Billy D’s 2015 team. Then in White’s 2nd season, he got us back in the elite 8.
We have not been at that level the last 2 seasons, but we have at least been a solid top 40 type team. The higher number of losses also has a lot to do with the dramatic improvement of the SEC overall the last 3 years & the fact we play a hard OOC schedule. Teams like UT, LSU & Auburn had caught & passed us from a talent perspective.
Next season will be the first season we have the talent to compete again as a top 10-15 team. Now if the team fails this year, that would suggest White is overrated as a coach. For now though I would argue he has done well and commensurate with the talent level on the roster.
To me there is nothing to support that he is overrated or has done less with more like the other coaches in this thread. Again he is 5-3 in the NCAA tourney over 4 seasons & has the team positioned as pre-season top 10-15 team. We are very happy w/Coach White & the state of the program moving forward...
No you are right Izzo typically has as good as talent as a program like KU. Its close, but look at the draft picks. MSU is in that second tier of schools behind KU, UK, Duke and UNC which always have the most talent imo.
I'll also say the B1G is a tougher lague than the Big12--lots of time Selfs teams earn a 1 or 2 seed but wouldnt be that high if they played in the B1G or ACC.
I understand the thought, but I think that's overblown. I think he'd have a few more losses in the ACC and maybe the B10 as well, but I don't think it would have a big impact on seeding.
The B12 isn't as solid at the top as those leagues, but it's generally got few, if any, gimmes. And all teams are played twice. It's debatable as to which is tougher to amass wins in, honestly.
Using last year as an example, Mich St played 5 regular season games vs teams that ended the year ranked. 2 vs the top 10. KU played 6 vs the top 25 and 2 vs top 10. Plus, their OOC schedule is always among the strongest in the nation.
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Saying a coach should have "MORE" titles is actually kind of a compliment.
to answer the OP question. It has to be Sean Miller. He's recruiting as well as anyone and doesn't even have a FF.
Leonard Hamilton says hold my beer. He’s been at state for atleast 96 years. Guy has studs every year and can’t get a taste of a final four.
Those that put tubby, izzo, etc on this list are ******ed they won titles they did something right. If that were the case boheim would top that list.
Those that put tubby, izzo, etc on this list are ******ed they won titles they did something right. If that were the case boheim would top that list.
Studs every year? What’s their average recruiting class ranking?
1 27 Mfiondu Kabengele SF 6-10 250 So * 21 Florida State
2 48 Terance Mann SG 6-7 215 Sr 22 Florida State
1 6 Jonathan Isaac SF 6-10 210 Fr * 19 Florida State
2 40 Dwayne Bacon SF 6-7 221 So * 21 Florida State
1 19 Malik Beasley SG 6-5 195 Fr * 19 Florida State
2 33 Bernard James PF 6-10 230 Sr 27 Florida State
1 18 Chris Singleton FC 6-8 228 Jr * 21 Florida State
2 50 Solomon Alabi C 7-1 250 So * 22 Florida State
2 57 Ryan Reid PF 6-8 235 Sr 23 Florida State
1 29 Toney Douglas G 6-2 195 Sr 23 Florida State
1 14 Al Thornton F 6-8 203 Sr 23 Florida State
2 45 Alexander Johnson F 6-9 240 Jr * 23 Florida State
2 39 Von Wafer GF 6-5 210 So * 19 Florida State
2 44 Tim Pickett G 6-4 207
That’s just his guys drafted since he’s been there. He gets good players, you don’t always have to be drafted to be good.
I already disproved your “no talent” excuse for Mike White earlier in the thread. You conveniently didn’t respond.
UF hasn’t been terrible under White, but they’ve certainly underperformed based on the talent on the roster. Shoot, a year or two ago UF had more 4 and 5 star players on the roster than all but like 4 teams in the country.
What’s funny is, I really really like Mike White as a person. Dude is intelligent, enjoyable to speak with, looks you in the eye, and clearly knows ball. But his teams at UF have just been so soft and kind of “system-less” on offense. No rhyme or reason to what they’re trying to do one game to the next. It’s weird.
Lol. You just have a list of 14 NBA draft picks (some of which never even played in the NBA) over the last 17 years. That’s less than 1 pick per year. And 5 of the picks have come in the last 3 years (when FSU has an Elite 8, a Sweet 16, and set the all time school record for wins in a season). So it was 9 picks in 14 years prior to three years ago.
On top of that, guys like Kabengele, Al Thornton, and Bernard James didn’t even have offers out of high school. Hell, Bernard James was discovered by Hamilton playing rec ball while in the military. Those guys were drafted after years of coaching and development by Ham and Stan Jones. They weren’t high school studs who could contribute from day one.
In what world is FSU bringing in “studs” every year? Hell, last year FSU had a grand total of three consensus top 100 picks on the entire roster, none of whom were five stars. And one was the 100th rated player.
Three top 100 players on the whole roster and won 29 games. Yeah, really raking in the stud recruits.
In the words of Jim Calhoun, check your facts and get back to me.
Here are FSU’s consensus team recruiting rankings since 2010:
2010 — 25th
2011 — 47th
2012 — 40th
2013 — 42nd
2014 — 58th
2015 — 11th
2016 — 13th
2017 — 16th
2018 — 121st
2019 — 18th
Simply put, @Wall2Boogie is either lying or doesn’t know what he’s talking about on this subject.
Obvious answer is obvious.... Coach K. Clearly all he does is roll the ball out. Even Johnny Jones could win with all that talent. 
Is it true Brad Calipari is about to play for Mike Davis @ Detroit Mercy?Obvious answer is obvious.... Coach K. Clearly all he does is roll the ball out. Even Johnny Jones could win with all that talent.
Lol except you didn’t. I didn’t respond to you because it was a complete waste a time.
You named a total of 8 blue chip players, on a sport that has a 13 scholarship players roster over a 4 year aggregate period. One of those players barely even played & transferred after 1 season. So it’s obvious your intent was to manipulate.
Essentially what you are saying is only about 1/3 of the UF players under White have been high-level recruits & 2 of those were true freshman just brought in last season. At the same time though, not one of those guys was good enough to leave early, or even get drafted in the lottery at all.
There is not a single starting level NBA talent on that group. Not to mention if you go by recruiting rankings for White’s 4 classes prior to this season, which is what you used to measure the talent at FSU, UF rankings are 17, 69, 19 & 20 respectively, for a 4 year average of 31.25.
Again that is right where UF has been under White the last 4 years, a top 30-40 program, one commensurate with the talent that came in. Exactly like I have stated and everyone else has in this thread except for the misinformed.
While White hasn’t been very good performance wise, he hasn’t been bad either. 3 straight NCAA tourney appearances, with a win each postseason & 1 elite 8 finish seems right in line with the talent level at UF to date.
Just because that doesn’t fit your biased narrative doesn’t make it right. When nobody else in the country agrees with you, it just makes you like another DelusioNole...
I just named the guys off the top of my head.
Here’s where recruiting rankings don’t tell the whole story: Mike White has crushed the transfer market. Dorian Finney Smith, Jalen Hudson, this year Kerry Blackshear. Canyon Berry (yes I know he wasn’t a top recruit but he was a proven player). Finney Smith was a 5 star but didn’t factor into your “recruit” rankings.
You gotta go by consensus top 100 players on the roster. Or consensus 4/5 star players on the roster. And by that measure, UF has been top 10-15 in talent the last 3-4 years.
Now as for them not getting drafted...sounds like that’s a player development issue. Which dovetails pretty nicely with “underachieving.”
Like I said, I really like Mike White. I’ve personally engaged with him on 5 or 6 occasions, back to his La Tech days. I want him to succeed. He’d be the type of human being I’d want a child to play for. But unfortunately, his performance at UF has been less than ideal given the talent, available resources/administrative support, and the lack of elite competition in the conference. (SEC has improved, undoubtedly, but it’s still not like the ACC or Big 10).
My hatred for UF in football doesn’t really translate in hoops. Billy D and Mike White are just too good of guys. So this isn’t a biased opinion. It’s an objective one informed by speaking with with folks in college basketball around the country. There’s a growing sense of underachievement for White. It’s nothing like Shaka now, or what Avery Johnson had. But it’s growing.
If White doesn’t get UF to at least a 3 seed in the NCAAT this year...it’s gonna get even louder.
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You are not wrong on this year. The upcoming season we will have top 10 talent, so anything below a 3 seed is a disappointment.
But even with grad transfers, you are the only one I have ever seen characterize the 2016-2019 rosters as Top 10-15 in talent. Typically one would think over 4 years a top 10-15 program in talent would have multiple NBA lottery pick guys. Think 1 or 2 & done caliber players or at least a 1st round pick.
Yet UF had none, while about 30 other programs did. UF simply has not had elite top 15 caliber under White & any rational objective follower of college basketball can see that.
The last couple of seasons UF has been the 5th or 6th most talented in just the SEC alone which is obviously nowhere close to Top 15 nationally.
This season he does & it’s year 5 of his system. Let’s see how the season plays out before saying he clearly belongs in the doing less with more category. Especially when he has never truly had more from a talent perspective until now.
You are the only one who for some reason thinks he belongs in this thread & I’m sure it’s purely coincidence you are a Nole...
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