Trump/ Biden I: The Battle for the Oval Office..

dukedevilz

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I should not have said pro choice. I misremembered what I had read. Basically the support of some form of abortion was 70%.
I'm a very ardent pro-life supporter. But, even I would fall under the "legal only under certain circumstances" category. I think it would be admissible if the mother's life were in jeopardy, and in cases like rape and incest. I would never label myself as pro-choice, however. So, not sure 70% is really a true representation of how America feels. 98%+ of abortions are due to the inconvenience factor.
 

SIhoosier26

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I'm a very ardent pro-life supporter. But, even I would fall under the "legal only under certain circumstances" category. I think it would be admissible if the mother's life were in jeopardy, and in cases like rape and incest. I would never label myself as pro-choice, however. So, not sure 70% is really a true representation of how America feels. 98%+ of abortions are due to the inconvenience factor.
This.

”Legal only under certain circumstances“ isn’t what the left wing party is pushing.
 

ticket2ride04

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I'm a very ardent pro-life supporter. But, even I would fall under the "legal only under certain circumstances" category. I think it would be admissible if the mother's life were in jeopardy, and in cases like rape and incest. I would never label myself as pro-choice, however. So, not sure 70% is really a true representation of how America feels. 98%+ of abortions are due to the inconvenience factor.
Alabama passed a last that only allows for abortion in the case it can be proven there is lethal danger to the mother or the child will be stillborn. Rape/incest not covered.

By your own admission, you are pro-choice.
 

dukedevilz

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This.

”Legal only under certain circumstances“ isn’t what the left wing party is pushing.
Exactly. They're quick to say, "Well, what about a woman that was raped?" The logical counter is, "Okay, fine. Let's say abortion is legal if the woman is raped. Is it okay to outlaw abortions that fall outside the scope of rape and other extreme cases?" And they'll say "Well, no." Okay... then why bring it up. We're not talking about the extreme cases, we're talking about the 98-99% of elective abortions.
 
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JimboBBN

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Trump inherited a strong economy (despite what you guys think) and made it better with tax cuts and deregulation. He also pushed very hard for lowering interest rates. Despite all this, he oversaw the debt and deficit grow. Many of us were concerned about a recession on the horizon (no one saw COVID coming) and no bullets left in the chamber to combat it.

COVID hits and he has been a disaster. There’s no way to deny it. But more presidents than not have to deal with a major disaster on their watch. GWB had 9/11. Obama had the Great Recession. Trump has shown to be a horrible leader in times of crisis.
I don’t think I ever argued that Trump didn’t inherit a good economy. All I argued was that some people are better off under Trump than Obama. Not sure you can argue that anymore due to COVID. But like I said, I think probably most presidents would struggle in a time like this. 9/11 I wouldn’t compare to this, maybe the recession in 08. I have always said Trump could do better, but I think a lot of you guys would grill him regardless. It’s a tough situation to be in being the leader of the world superpower. Could others have done better? Probably. But this would have hurt the United States no matter what, which was my original point.
 
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Afamu

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Out of curiosity, how is the country better now than it was 4 years ago?
Prior to a world wide pandemic, it was unbelievable. Jobs, the economy, unemployment was down in the minority community. How can you say it wasnt better.
 

JimboBBN

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It does seem counterintuitive, but abortion isn't about religion. It's about the sanctity of life. People are becoming more aware that the "My body, my choice" adage is superficial, and mostly done out of an inconvenience. It's not your body, and you're taking away someone else's choice at life. And life begins at conception; that's the point at which unique DNA is formed. The pro-life movements have been helpful in gaining a few extra adherents. I don't actually expect Roe v. Wade to be overturned, but perhaps if 60% of the public were pro-life, it might be a realistic possibility.
You and I agree on a lot of things, most things, but we don’t see eye to eye on this one. I have a very hard time telling someone else what to do with their body. I don’t think people should use it as an eraser for an unwanted pregnancy, that is extremely lazy and honestly just kind of evil. But things happen, people are put in tough situations in life.
Don’t get me wrong, I see your logic and I think you make a strong case for your argument. Again, I would just be way to uncomfortable telling someone else how to handle their bodies.
 

SIhoosier26

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Exactly. They're quick to say, "Well, what about a woman that was raped?" The logical counter is, "Okay, fine. Let's say abortion is legal if the woman is raped. Is it okay to outlaw abortions that fall outside the scope of rape and other extreme cases?" And they'll say "Well, no." Okay... then why bring it up. We're not talking about the extreme cases, we're talking about the 98-99% of elective abortions.
They use it as a ruse to get you off the actual topic.

I don’t think it should be legal for any woman (that had consensual sex) to have an abortion unless she can prove that her physical health is in danger. If she consented in sex she already had her choice, if she’s unfit to be a mother there is always adoption.
 

GhostOf301

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You guys see where the month of September was the fewest deaths per 100,000 in Sweden's history since keeping records? Not too bad, especially considering the fact that it is in the middle of a global pandemic.
 

dukedevilz

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Alabama passed a last that only allows for abortion in the case it can be proven there is lethal danger to the mother or the child will be stillborn. Rape/incest not covered.

By your own admission, you are pro-choice.
I would prefer all babies are born. I simply remove judgment if the woman is raped. I'm never for a baby being terminated. And women are still free to travel to other states and get an elective abortion. It's not going away. And i's the exception to the rule; the rule itself is don't kill babies.

And honestly, wouldn't this be a good way to actually catch a rapist in their tracks, where they can't cover up the evidence? They'll be responsible for child support, prison time, and registering as a sex offender. Odds of being a repeat offender should be dramatically reduced.
 

ticket2ride04

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I would prefer all babies are born. I simply remove judgment if the woman is raped. I'm never for a baby being terminated. And women are still free to travel to other states and get an elective abortion. It's not going away. And i's the exception to the rule; the rule itself is don't kill babies.

And honestly, wouldn't this be a good way to actually catch a rapist in their tracks, where they can't cover up the evidence? They'll be responsible for child support, prison time, and registering as a sex offender. Odds of being a repeat offender should be dramatically reduced.
Your second paragraph conflicts with your first. I couldn’t imagine forcing a woman to carry a baby to term from rape.
 

dukedevilz

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You and I agree on a lot of things, most things, but we don’t see eye to eye on this one. I have a very hard time telling someone else what to do with their body. I don’t think people should use it as an eraser for an unwanted pregnancy, that is extremely lazy and honestly just kind of evil. But things happen, people are put in tough situations in life.
Don’t get me wrong, I see your logic and I think you make a strong case for your argument. Again, I would just be way to uncomfortable telling someone else how to handle their bodies.
Except for the fact that it's not her body.



We don't mind "forcing our view" on people by keeping rape and spousal abuse illegal, nor should we, as they have an aggrieved party, as does abortion.
 

JimboBBN

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Except for the fact that it's not her body.



We don't mind "forcing our view" on people by keeping rape and spousal abuse illegal, nor should we, as they have an aggrieved party, as does abortion.
It kind of is, though. There is no baby without a mother to have it grow, ya know? I don’t want to sound like I’m forcing my views on anyone, it’s actually the opposite. It’s hard for me to feel strongly enough to argue one way or the other because of how much middle ground there is between where most people are. Do I have a problem with two teenagers not being safe and protective and having an abortion? Yes, I have an issue with that. Do I have an issue with someone aborting a baby due to being raped or possibly having health complications due to the pregnancy? Of course not. I’m not sure how anyone could, honestly.
 

dukedevilz

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Your second paragraph conflicts with your first. I couldn’t imagine forcing a woman to carry a baby to term from rape.
I remove judgement from those that have been raped and have an abortion. But, I can also see merit for making it illegal in a state. I'm leaving that right to the state. Recidivism would greatly be reduced, responsibility and accountability would be encouraged, and there are something like 1 in 10 women that struggle to get pregnant. So, that could help unfertile women in the adoption process, which can take years. Again though, the women is still free to travel, she's not "forced to carry a baby to term." I can understand why a woman would want an abortion if she's raped... but, I can also see the merits of a state wanting more accountability. That's not conflicting. That's simply letting the woman decide, in the extreme cases like rape... and letting the state decide on what they want to legislate. On all accounts, I'm against elective abortions.
 
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dukedevilz

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It kind of is, though. There is no baby without a mother to have it grow, ya know? I don’t want to sound like I’m forcing my views on anyone, it’s actually the opposite. It’s hard for me to feel strongly enough to argue one way or the other because of how much middle ground there is between where most people are. Do I have a problem with two teenagers not being safe and protective and having an abortion? Yes, I have an issue with that. Do I have an issue with someone aborting a baby due to being raped or possibly having health complications due to the pregnancy? Of course not. I’m not sure how anyone could, honestly.
Yes, but I'm not arguing against the extreme cases. I'm arguing against the inconvenient cases, which are some 98-99% of all abortions. Take a look at Florida from 2018.

 
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ticket2ride04

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I remove judgement from those that have been raped and have an abortion. But, I can also see merit for making it illegal in a state. I'm leaving that right to the state. Recidivism would greatly reduced, responsibility and accountability would be encouraged, and there are something like 1 in 10 women that struggle to get pregnant. So, that could help unfertile women in the adoption process, which can take years. Again though, the women is still free to travel, she's not "forced to carry a baby to term." I can understand why a woman would want an abortion if she's raped... but, I can also see the merits of a state wanting more accountability. That's not conflicting. That's simply letting the woman decide, in the extreme cases like rape... and letting the state decide on what they want to legislate. On all accounts, I'm against elective abortions.
You remove judgment? Must be nice view up there on your horse.

I can‘t believe you’d even try and support women carrying a rape baby by citing possible beneficial outcomes. Not a good look.
 

dukedevilz

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You remove judgment? Must be nice view up there on your horse.

I can‘t believe you’d even try and support women carrying a rape baby by citing possible beneficial outcomes. Not a good look.
I'm not saying I would try to force her hand one way or another. But, all life, no matter how it came to be, has intrinsic value. I can understand if she wants to terminate the pregnancy.

And you're judging me right now. So, that must be nice, too.
 

brooky03

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You guys see where the month of September was the fewest deaths per 100,000 in Sweden's history since keeping records? Not too bad, especially considering the fact that it is in the middle of a global pandemic.
Kind of a worthless stat. If one month is lower in deaths because a previous month in the year was higher in deaths, that kinda doesn’t mean anything, right?
 

brooky03

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Coat hanger abortions are pretty sweet. I see you guys are in favor of that.


Nice
 

Afamu

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Coat hanger abortions are pretty sweet. I see you guys are in favor of that.


Nice
How about abstinence and why with every conversation like this, do the pro abortion folks have to act like coat hanger abortions are some popular thing.
 

brooky03

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How about abstinence and why with every conversation like this, do the pro abortion folks have to act like coat hanger abortions are some popular thing.
You’ve never had one? Don’t knock it til you try it
 

hailtoyourvictor

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It’s a stretch to say this was a religious test. In the 1600s, England adopted laws (religious tests) to protect the Church of England. Basically you couldn’t be anything but Christian. In the early days of the colonies, many states adopted similar rules. When the constitution was written, clause 6, section 3 wanted to keep religious affiliation out of a requisite for office. Meaning all religions could serve.

In the context of the SCOTUS hearings, there is concern that Barrett will be the deciding vote to overturn Roe v Wade. Highlighting her religious beliefs was never about disqualifying her from office, it was to scare the Left into voting. Abortion isn’t popular, but 70% of Americans support Pro-Choice.

As for attacking Catholicism on the bench, just stop. 6 or 7 of the justices are Catholics.
“70% of American’s support pro choice”. In what context?

I think that number is probably even higher in cases of rape.

It’s probably A LOT lower in cases of uncomplicated, viable 2nd/3rd term pregnancies.


No way does 70% of America support pro choice regardless of situation.
 

ticket2ride04

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“70% of American’s support pro choice”. In what context?

I think that number is probably even higher in cases of rape.

It’s probably A LOT lower in cases of uncomplicated, viable 2nd/3rd term pregnancies.


No way does 70% of America support pro choice regardless of situation.
I amended my statement later. Should have used support abortion in some form over pro choice. Although, supporting any form of abortion for any reason is, in fact, pro choice.
 

hailtoyourvictor

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Trying to find a link from a non-biased site. Mostly conservative or liberal sites are touting wildly varying numbers. The biggest thing is the variation of beliefs among the pro choice crowd. Here’s the best I could find with a quick search.

From that article:

“In all, 61% said they were in favor of a combination of limitations that included allowing abortion in just the first three months of a pregnancy (23%); only in cases of rape, incest or to save the life of the woman (29%); or only to save the life of the woman (9%).

Eighteen percent said abortion should be available to a woman any time she wants during her entire pregnancy. At the other end of the spectrum, 9% said it should never be permitted under any circumstance.”


A bit misleading frame that as simply “70% of Americans are pro choice.”
 
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hailtoyourvictor

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I amended my statement later. Should have used support abortion in some form over pro choice. Although, supporting any form of abortion for any reason is, in fact, pro choice.
It’s a misleading way to frame that poll, semantics be damned (which is when you amended it).