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Discussion in 'College Football Soundoff' started by VaultHunter, Jun 14, 2019.
This is laughable non-sense. I’m not even sure how to respond. It’s like trying to respond to the relative proficiency poster.
We can talk about the rules differences all day. That’s a separate conversation and one worth having.
But the depth of overall talent was not on the same level. It just wasn’t. The long range shooting ability of players is just so much better today, not to mention the ball movement, lateral quickness, and spacing.
Think about Toni Kukoc. Did was kind of a weird unicorn that no one knew what to do with. These days he’d be an average SF. Guys like Freak and AD can hit shots from 26 feet and also protect the rim and post up.
The top end talent has always been sort of the same. Guys like Magic, Bird, Moses Malone, Big O, MJ, Olajuwon. The best of the best have always been incredible. But the difference today is that second and third tier down. There’s just so many more really really good players today than in previous eras, largely due to the global proliferation of the game.
But that’s not really relevant to the discussion about actual NBA teams, especially when talking about the “Mid to late 90s.”
The advanced metrics don’t support that hypothesis.
This Raptors team is pretty freaking good. I think we can all agree that Kawhi is an all time great.
The biggest thing people keep forgetting with regards to today's NBA teams is how much better they are at shooting threes. You can hate on that aspect of how basketball has gone all you want, but there is a reason every NBA team is doing it now.
NBA teams on average are shooting three times more 3 pointers than they were in the 90s. Houston shot 45 threes per game this past season, which was most in the NBA. Houston also shot the most threes in '93 when they shot 15 per game. Teams shoot at a better % now than they did back in the 90s as well, despite the fact that in the 90s only your best shooters would shoot threes.
Just look at the Raptors this year. Every single person on the floor can shoot. The floor is stretched more now and it is way harder to defend. This Raptors team could easily win a title if it were magically transported back to the 90s.
Kukoc was a hair better than average then. Averaged 6 rebs a game in his prime..16 ppg in his prime..11 ppg overall.
I think the Bulls' defensive big 3 of MJ, Pippen and Rodman would've still been excellent. Those guys would absolutely shut down teams. I think guys appear to be so much better offensively because guys don't get hands put on them nearly as much, for example. (And I know you are making a league-wide point and not talking about the Bulls specifically)
You may be right and I'm missing it, but it is very hard for me to compare when offensive styles are so different and a big part of that is bc of the defensive rules and the allowance of more spacing it seems to me. I think the guys back then would've been able to adapt to today's game and been fine.
The 90's NBA was filled with superstars...Todays NBA, theres maybe a handful
The Bulls would lock these teams up because there is no great threat of a Big down low in this league.
Without that...you have no chance.
They could switch at all 5 positions.
The guys now are dumber than they used to be.
The last 38 seconds for GS was comical.
There is something to be said for 3/4 yrs of college seasoning sometimes.
Yep, You are talking about the two best perimeter defenders of all time, plus Rodman. Also Pippen was so long, making him really versatile on both ends. I could see him checking a Harden fairly well. First of all, he'd be picking him up at mid court.
Cavs were screwed when Kyrie left.
Yes but it is biased because it's been almost 20-30 years ago and that Era is finished. When it's 2040-2050, it's very possible that the 2010's are going to feature more great players than the 90's
Yeah no. That's just nostalgia speaking. 90s NBA players would not survive in today's NBA. Centers would get eaten alive 20+ feet from the basket, guys like Giannis, RW, Lebron, and KD would wreck those players and teams with their unique skill sets that did not exist back then.
Do you know how in football recruiting you always want to take the more athletic, physically advanced player over the less athletic, but maybe more "polished" inferior player? Well that same concept applies when comparing 2010's players to the 90's players. And it applies when comparing the 90's players to the 60's and 70's players.
And bigs today can barely shoot a jump hook or take advantage of mismatches on smaller players.
Players can barely shoot 15 footers because all they practice are 3s.
The game is different so players ate learning different skills while losing the ability of others
The basketball IQ has been impacted as rhe keague age has dropped.
The rules of the game have been changed...Tim Duncan was a 37yrs old 1st ream All NBA at the Center spot in 2013
He seem to do just fine.....These teams will shoot a bad 3 before rhey take advantage of a slow big.
Secondly the bigs in the 90s were more athletic than you think. The game was pkayed differently.
2015 Cavs/Warriors Final.....Kyrie and Love were out and LeBron still took them to 6 games by himself. That planted the seed that LeBron was the best ever.
2016 Cavs/Warriors Final.....Cavs came back from being down 3-1 which NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE IN NBA HISTORY to win the title. That proved Lebron was the best ever. Cavs at full strength was no match for the Warriors at full strength.
2017 Cavs/Warriors Final......Cavs mindfkd the Warriors so bad they had to get Durant in the offseason to beat them.
2018 Cavs/Warriors Final......Lebron took a high school team to the Finals that was hurt, for the 4th straight year GS was at 100% health wise.
2019 Raptors ass fkd Warriors in which really should have been a sweep because game 2 was tricked away by the Raptors.
This Warrior dynasty took a huge hit.....after next year they are a lottery team.
Durant,Klay,Green all gone.
Obviously the Bulls would still be great. Any team with MJ and Scottie on it is going to be great.
But the “no defense” thing, in my opinion, is such a cop out by folks who simply yearn for they “golden days” of their youth. Hard fouls aren’t the same thing as playing defense. Somewhere along the lines there was a blending of two different concepts—that bloody knuckled street fights was the equivalent of being a great defender.
Are the rules different to allow less over the top physicality? Yes. But there is still elite defense being played. Joel Embiid is an elite defender in any era. Kawhi Leonard is an elite defender in any era. Rajon Rondo (in his prime) is an elite defender in any era. Jonathan Isaac is an elite defender in any era.
Here’s what is different. The three point shooting. Teams in the 90s might have one or two guys who spread the floor. Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, Steve Kerr, Mark Price—those guys were ultimate weapons who could create space for others like MJ to operate in.
Well now, teams have 3 or 4 guys who can make it rain from deep. Shit, some teams have 5 or 6. Golden State has the first and second greatest three point shooters of all time in the same damn back court. Giannis is a 7 foot freak who can bring his defender out away from the rim out to 26 feet.
Guys are shooting higher percentages on higher volume from deeper and deeper. And it’s changed the actual geometry of basketball. If Patrick Beverly doesn’t pick up Curry 35 feet from the basket, Curry will make them pay time and time again. This has resulted in far more space for guys to operate off the dribble.
Defenders aren’t lazy or bad. They have twice as much area to cover. Bill Lambier would have to move away from the rim and go guard Pascal Siakam or Nikola Jokic 25 feet out. And then recover back to protect the rim and rebound when they play a two man game.
It’s not “the allowance” of more spacing. It’s the creation of more space by shooters being soooo much better up and down rosters.
This thread title should be in the Hall of Fame of thread titles.
Retired Jersey Number both at collegiate and professional level
NBA 50 Greatest Players List
Multiple Time All-Star including an MVP
Season Scoring, Rebounding Championships
Voted Greatest Basketball Player for Entire Half Century
Leonard's got a ways to go before catching up to Michael Jordan.
No wait, that's not Jordan.
I wonder what a new 50 greatest list would look like. That came out when, 1996? Been a lot of great players since then. Wonder who gets kicked out?
Lol Giannis shoots 26% from 3...Siakam shoots 30%. Karl Malone shot 28% from 3. No..Chuck Daley would simply tell Laimbeer to let them both shoot and we'll take 72% of their shots off the glass and go the other way with it. lol.
Your comparison is not as cut and dried as reality would be, and your first paragraph is a cartoonish picture of the 90s. If you look at the all time 3 pt % guys, there are plenty of players from that era in the top 30 or so that would simply work on their outside game and adapt. And this era's players would do the same to the 90s game. There wouldn't be this big gap in ability you are describing. Reggie Miller shooting 300 more threes per year wouldn't make him a worse 3 pt shooter..he'd be even deadlier.
Good question and not one I'd be interesting in having to answer on the NBA's behalf. I'm also wondering if the NFL will update its all-time roster for the 100th season come September like they had for the 75 one.
Take all Chicago Bulls teams out of it, I’ll take at least 5 other teams from ‘90’s that would beat any team from 2005-present (Post Shaq prime).
Siakam is a young guy who just shot 37% from 3 this year. Over 40% on corner threes. He’s not gonna end up a 30% career shooter. But fine, don’t like him as an example, how about AD? Kevin Love? KAT? Blake Griffin? Marc Gasol? Nic Vucivic? Dirk Nowitski? Not to even speak of 6’7-6’8 small forwards like Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, Justice Winslow, Harrison Barnes, Nic Batum, Gallinari, and Khris Middleton.
In 1993, 35 NBA players made 35.0% or more of their three point attempts. This past year, 89 players made at least 35.0%. Nearly triple the amount.
You can yearn for the days of yesteryear as much as the next guy, but you can’t deny the facts.
And yes, taking higher volume from deeper and deeper does lower percentages for lots of guys.
Yes, but your conclusion is incomplete when you don't add why they shot at a lower percentage. It is bc it wasn't a part of teams' game plans to go out and shoot tons of threes. Not bc the DNA of HS basketball players magically became transformed. It never occured to Hakeem etc to work on their 3 game. Players then would've adapted and HS players then would've been working on it. It is a completely different sport now, not bc it is played by some more evolved human. Steve Kerr averaged 1.8 three attempts/game for his career lol. It is not even remotely the same sport.
I haven’t said one thing about why. All I’ve done is talk about the facts. The fact that NBA players are wayyy better at shooting threes now is why there is more space to defend. It’s why all these “Team X from 1995 would kill today’s teams” are funny because today’s teams would gladly trade 3 for 2.
Tennis players hit the hall harder and more spin because the equipment is better. Same for golfers. Track guys run faster because training is better.
The “whys” are there across sports. What does that have to do with the actual argument at hand?
The injuries and losing the Finals probably increased the chances of Durant staying with GS. He cares about perception and how it played out helped justify that they can’t win the Finals without him(9-1 in Finals games Durant has started). Anyone watching Draymond Green decline the last year already knew this but he got to see that perception become unanimous through media.
I think if the Warriors sign Klay and KD they might consider trading Green
Guys can shoot better from three. One single aspect of the game. Why is the NBA far better bc of this one area? Seems a little speculative. You might as well say the 60s is far better bc there are way more guys in the top 40 all time in career Rebounds.
I didn’t say it was better because of one area. My original point about the depth of talent listed several areas. You responded about the threes and how it was because guys were allowed more space. That prompted my response that it’s not them being allowed more space, it’s that more space has been created because so many more guys can shoot the three, and from deeper and deeper. (This was relevant to how there is just as good as defense played now, if not better, they are just forced to cover more areas).
As for your rebound example...well I’ve seen all your posts over the years so I know you’re smart enough to see what the issue is with that statement and why it would mean the era was worse not better.
Back to the current NBA, my point all along is that there is a much deeper pool of talent now than in the mid-to-late 90s. (And also more now than in the 2004-2010 time frame). These things run in cycles. The 80s were also a more talented, deeper era. Honestly, the 80s might be the only era with a deeper pool of talent than the current NBA era.
Now, as I said from the start, talent and style are different conversations. Some people don’t like an open, free flowing game with tons of ball movement and deep shooting. Some prefer a boxed in rugby match. That’s cool. But that’s a different conversation.
What the different style doesn’t mean is that guys can’t defend today or that no defense is played. Playing defense in the NBA is tougher than ever right now because of how much more space you have to cover and how quickly the ball moves (as opposed to the triangle or iso-based offenses).
Defense are literally playing 5 against 3 in the finals.
Toronto wasnt even guarding 2 of GS players.
.Toronto sat in the paint the last series is why they won not because they defended the 3 well.
.Tempo and offensive efficiency creates more points.
Shooting quick bad shots is apart of NBA basketball
Teams dont fight over picks anymore they just switch.
Thats easier defense any day of the week.
And you can legally play zone....playing a bunch of shooters who cant play defense is all you are seeing.
I pulled up the ECF between the Bulls and Pacers. After a Bulls made bucket, Pippen would pick up the point guard at the opposite FT line every time down, hounding the absolute hell out of him. Does this happen much today?
Edit..checked GS/Blazers playoff game...not a single time. Everyone runs down to the hash and beyond. The point guard is eating an apple while bringing the ball into the back court.
Pippen/Jordan used to get several picks this way..a four pt swing right there.
Why do you think folks don’t do it as much now?
Also, why do you only keep bringing up the Bulls? Doesn’t seem like anyone has questioned their greatness and it’s not very relevant to a discussion about the depth of overall talent in the league.
It has been strongly implied by some, the Bulls were only good bc they won in a weak decade. I am only disagreeing with your claim the mid to late 90s NBA was far worse than today and that the gap in reality would not be what you perceive it to be.
Actually I think it was the exception that Scotty and MJ did it, even then.
Well you weren't even a Warriors fan 10 years ago so it doesn't really matter.
He probably became a Warriors fan in 2015
Yeah wrong there buddy so try harder.
No not even close. Late 90s when we sucked pretty bad.