ADVERTISEMENT

Serious question: Did St. John's get in for TV ratings (NYC) ?

nole96

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2002
18,759
2,460
113
I'm trying to find some angle where they deserved a bid based on their resume, and I've got absolutely nothing.

8-10 in a crummy Big East

4-7 on the road

4-6 in their last 10
9-12 in their last 21

#327 OOC SOS (This is atrocious)

But their metrics are even worse...

73 NET
78 KenPom
66 Sagarin
70 BPI
66 RPI

They excelled at literally nothing. But then it came to me... St. John's is NYC's team, and that's an awful lot of extra televisions they'd have with them in the tournament. I really can't think of any other explanation for why they're in.
 
Disagree imo- I think if they wanted them in for ratings, they wouldn't have put them in a play-in game. Besides, I feel like Cuse is more New York's team...
 
Bracketmatrix showed them making it. Not that big of a surprise.
 
How do they compare to UNCG? A lot of hullabaloo about them deserving to be in....I can tell you we played them and they were definitely tough as hell and worthy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wrbchWolfPack81
The only real surprise was Belmont over TCU. BracketMatrix got 67 of the 68.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GE Nole
Most of NYC is unaware college sports exist.
This is true, but they usually pack the Garden for big games, and when they're having a good season, the NYC fans will latch on to them. They've only been to the big dance twice in the last 17 years, so I would imagine their ratings would be really high this year, epecially if they win a game or two.
 
I'm trying to find some angle where they deserved a bid based on their resume, and I've got absolutely nothing.

8-10 in a crummy Big East

4-7 on the road

4-6 in their last 10
9-12 in their last 21

#327 OOC SOS (This is atrocious)

But their metrics are even worse...

73 NET
78 KenPom
66 Sagarin
70 BPI
66 RPI


They excelled at literally nothing. But then it came to me... St. John's is NYC's team, and that's an awful lot of extra televisions they'd have with them in the tournament. I really can't think of any other explanation for why they're in.
Makes even more mad....
 
How do they compare to UNCG? A lot of hullabaloo about them deserving to be in....I can tell you we played them and they were definitely tough as hell and worthy.

UNCG I thought were actually more deserving than Belmont.

And they are for sure more deserving than St Johns.

Also do people care about St Johns in NYC?
 
UNCG I thought were actually more deserving than Belmont.

And they are for sure more deserving than St Johns.

Also do people care about St Johns in NYC?
I read where UNCG was in until Oregon won the PAC-12. So who would that have bumped out? My guess is St.John's? They were the last team in.
 
Not sure how big their TV ratings are in the city itself. I'm sure most New Yorkers after a long day's work only worry about trying to get home safely, not getting stabbed, shot groped, urinated on, on the subway or bus.
 
If we can avoid the madness and get out of the first round, I like our chances.

I know you previously mentioned that you would take a Gonzaga/FSU matchup in a heartbeat. Just curious, do you prefer where FSU is situated as opposed to Texas Tech? I thought FSU was deserving of a 3 seed (at least more so than Purdue). If chalk plays out, Texas Tech would play Northern Kentucky, Buffalo, and then Michigan. FSU could potentially get Marquette and Gonzaga. Marquette has lost 5 of their last 6 - and Gonzaga has a high-octane offense, but they are vulnerable at times. I think you could legitimately argue that FSU has an easier path than Texas Tech, even though playing Vermont in Hartford certainly won't be an easy one.
 
I know you previously mentioned that you would take a Gonzaga/FSU matchup in a heartbeat. Just curious, do you prefer where FSU is situated as opposed to Texas Tech? I thought FSU was deserving of a 3 seed (at least more so than Purdue). If chalk plays out, Texas Tech would play Northern Kentucky, Buffalo, and then Michigan. FSU could potentially get Marquette and Gonzaga. Marquette has lost 5 of their last 6 - and Gonzaga has a high-octane offense, but they are vulnerable at times. I think you could legitimately argue that FSU has an easier path than Texas Tech, even though playing Vermont in Hartford certainly won't be an easy one.

Been having this back and forth with a number of buddies. Did FSU deserve a 3? Arguably. Would I trade with any of the 3s? No.

I think FSU clearly has a harder path to the second round, and possibly the second weekend, than any of the 3s, as well as other 4s like VT. But if we can make it to the second round the path to the Final Four appears much more ideal. Don't face any of the Michigan or NC schools until elite 8 at earliest, and then it's the easiest of those 4 (Michigan). Don't face Kentucky. Don't face Nova in Hartford like Purdue does.

Honestly...I'm not even convinced we will play Gonzaga. Syracuse looks ripe for the upset if they beat Baylor.
 
Been having this back and forth with a number of buddies. Did FSU deserve a 3? Arguably. Would I trade with any of the 3s? No.

I think FSU clearly has a harder path to the second round, and possibly the second weekend, than any of the 3s, as well as other 4s like VT. But if we can make it to the second round the path to the Final Four appears much more ideal. Don't face any of the Michigan or NC schools until elite 8 at earliest, and then it's the easiest of those 4 (Michigan). Don't face Kentucky. Don't face Nova in Hartford like Purdue does.

Honestly...I'm not even convinced we will play Gonzaga. Syracuse looks ripe for the upset if they beat Baylor.

I certainly feel like the West is the most open region - you have 4 teams in the top 10 of the AP Poll, which is what I would consider the eye test. Buffalo is also a solid team, ranked 15th. I know Markus Howard had some sort of wrist injury in the Seton Hall game, not sure how serious it was. But he was 1 for 15 from the floor, so it appears to have an effect on his shooting. But I'm already expecting Murray State to take down Marquette, a team that has struggled mightily in the last three weeks.

I think Gonzaga would eat Syracuse alive, to be honest. Rui has one of the best mid-range games in the country and he could live at the foul line area. Also, I don't think Syracuse can score enough to keep up with Gonzaga's pace. But you never know, Cuse has certainly knocked off quite a few top-level teams in the last few years.
 
The only thing i can figure that got them in is they were 10-10 in their Q1/Q2 games. TCU was 9-13, NC State was 8-9. Every other metric they had worse numbers including 2 Q3 losses. IMO TCU got hosed big time. Better net, KP, NCSOS, fewer bad losses, same amount of top 50KP wins. TCU was 20 better in Net and 30 better in KP. Its odd since AZ had 4 "bad losses", St Johns had 2. The committee seemed to ignore bad losses, #1 metric appears to be Q1/Q2 combined record.
 
I certainly feel like the West is the most open region - you have 4 teams in the top 10 of the AP Poll, which is what I would consider the eye test. Buffalo is also a solid team, ranked 15th. I know Markus Howard had some sort of wrist injury in the Seton Hall game, not sure how serious it was. But he was 1 for 15 from the floor, so it appears to have an effect on his shooting. But I'm already expecting Murray State to take down Marquette, a team that has struggled mightily in the last three weeks.

I think Gonzaga would eat Syracuse alive, to be honest. Rui has one of the best mid-range games in the country and he could live at the foul line area. Also, I don't think Syracuse can score enough to keep up with Gonzaga's pace. But you never know, Cuse has certainly knocked off quite a few top-level teams in the last few years.

Maybe you're right about Rui. But Gonzaga has really struggled with long/athletic teams in March. Just look at who they've last to the last 6-8 years. And preparing for that zone on one day's rest/prep is a tough turnaround.
 
The only thing i can figure that got them in is they were 10-10 in their Q1/Q2 games. TCU was 9-13, NC State was 8-9. Every other metric they had worse numbers including 2 Q3 losses. IMO TCU got hosed big time. Better net, KP, NCSOS, fewer bad losses, same amount of top 50KP wins. TCU was 20 better in Net and 30 better in KP. Its odd since AZ had 4 "bad losses", St Johns had 2. The committee seemed to ignore bad losses, #1 metric appears to be Q1/Q2 combined record.

I agree that if any team has a gripe it's TCU.
 
Maybe you're right about Rui. But Gonzaga has really struggled with long/athletic teams in March. Just look at who they've last to the last 6-8 years. And preparing for that zone on one day's rest/prep is a tough turnaround.

Perhaps. Gonzaga lost to Syracuse in 2016, but that wasn't a particularly good Gonzaga team. They wouldn't have made the tournament as at-large that year. They were neck-and-neck with Duke and UNC in 2015 and 2017, respectively. Yes, FSU gave them fits last year. And I think they could be a bad mathcup for them again this year, which is why I have FSU beating them in Sweet 16. I just can't see Cuse beating Gonzaga. Syracuse really hasn't been that good this year. They were 3-8 against the top 9 teams in the ACC (wins over a Duke team missing two starters, Louisville, and Clemson)... And they were 8-1 against the bottom 6 teams. I'll root for Syracuse, but I think they'll struggle to beat Baylor.
 
First of all the NCAAT gets enough ratings on its own, adding a local NYC team is the least of their concerns to juice up ratings, and I would be extremely surprised if SJU does in fact pull more ratings than NC State. SJU probably pulls in the same "extra" ratings in NYC that Iona will pull against UNC.

Second NYC is a city full of transplants that are mostly college educated and the vast majority care nothing about SJU, as most have their own school that plays basketball. SJU does not resonate locally here either among neutrals, they are just 1 of dozens of colleges in the area, and just 1 of maybe 10 D1 basketball schools in and around NYC. Sure, if the glory days of Chris Mullin and Lou Carnesecca return people will rally around a winner like everywhere else, but outside of that there is no interest for SJU in a game by game basis even if they are in the tournament. If there is a team that neutral locals will gravitate towards in a way that would move the needle locally its Syracuse.

The reality is they picked SJU "just because", there isn't a much deeper reason than that. There are much more realistic possible conspiracy theories with bigger schools that were left behind and if anything the inclusion of SJU points towards a lack of corruption IMO.
 
Last edited:
Maybe you're right about Rui. But Gonzaga has really struggled with long/athletic teams in March. Just look at who they've last to the last 6-8 years. And preparing for that zone on one day's rest/prep is a tough turnaround.

Given Gonzaga will have a 200+ KP team coming to them on just short of 2 days rest I am pretty sure the week's prep leading up to the tournament will not solely be going to the play in teams in Dayton. They could lose to Cuse but they should be ready for it and not OCD prepping for the dreaded winner of the FDU/PVAM clash of titans. Its Cuse who will have trouble prepping for Gonzaga on a quick turn assuming they win.
 
Given Gonzaga will have a 200+ KP team coming to them on just short of 2 days rest I am pretty sure the week's prep leading up to the tournament will not solely be going to the play in teams in Dayton. They could lose to Cuse but they should be ready for it and not OCD prepping for the dreaded winner of the FDU/PVAM clash of titans. Its Cuse who will have trouble prepping for Gonzaga on a quick turn assuming they win.

Fair point.
 
In response to the OP: I have no idea how St. John's got in, but the poster that mentioned BracketMatrix is correct - BM predicted them in the field. The only positive I could find on their resume was going 3-2 against Nova/Marquette, but are either of those teams even that good? Besides that their resume is absolute garbage. They were the team I was questioning all along when they were being projected (and then ended up) in the field.

Since this thread has taken a turn I'll chime in on that as well. I do think Gonzaga has a tough draw. I tend to agree that Syracuse will have trouble keeping up offensively and that Rui will feast, but Syracuse is always a wild card (especially this generation of the team IMO). As has been said above, the zone can give teams serious problems. Also, they are a strange team offensively. They pretty much solely rely on individual creation on O. As a result, when they look bad they look terrible. But when a couple of their guys get hot (like in the game at Duke), it's very tough to stop them. That would be my concern for Gonzaga in that game - they struggle with the zone, and a Battle and Howard go nuts. Still, I think chances are Gonzaga wins somewhat comfortably.

I don't really know what to think of FSU. I think the point that they are the type of team Gonzaga struggles with is fair. At the same time, I think their hype has become a little overblown. Sure, they've gone 15-2 or something down the stretch, but if you look at their schedule it was very front loaded. Most of those 15 were against average to poor teams. If they had lost to VT in the ACC quarters (as they probably should have without a miracle), what would we be saying about them right now?

Other random comments:

I think Virginia got a great draw. Oklahoma is a joke IMO, and I don't think Ole Miss can play the 40 minutes that would be necessary to beat UVA. In the Sweet Sixteen they get Wisconsin, KSU or a cinderella. I think UVA's achilles heal is a bit similar to Gonzaga - long athletic teams that can breakdown their D one-on-one. Sure they could lose in the Sweet Sixteen, but I think they are far less likely to lose to teams that are similar to them (Wisconsin, KSU). Then they most likely get Tennessee or Purdue in the Elite Eight. I think I'm in the minority here, but I'm not overly impressed with Tennessee. I think UVA would shred their D. Same with Purdue actually, I think they'd need 45 or something from Edwards.

I like UNC's draw as well. I am a big fan of Utah State, but I don't think they match up well with UNC. Auburn can beat anyone in the field or lose to pretty much anyone in the field, but projecting them to the Elite 8 means you think they are going to shoot very well for 3 more straight games. Seems like a lot to ask. Kansas is just not playing very well. UNC's Elite 8 matchup will be tough, but that's what you expect by the time you get to that round.
 
Last edited:
I'm trying to find some angle where they deserved a bid based on their resume, and I've got absolutely nothing.

They excelled at literally nothing. But then it came to me... St. John's is NYC's team, and that's an awful lot of extra televisions they'd have with them in the tournament. I really can't think of any other explanation for why they're in.

Pick any two bubble teams...one that received an at large bid and one that was snubbed. Compare their combined Quad 1/Quad 2 winning percentage.

http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2019/net-nitty
 
ADVERTISEMENT