***Official Today is Today's Game Thread***

[IUfanBorden]

Good is relative...

We were talking about winning in the NCAA Tournament.

So his defenses for the most part haven't been good enough to win on the second weekend except the one year.

No, no---irrelevant. I said Gonzaga usually has a good, to really good defense. You asked when. So I showed you. You might be talking about winning in the NCAAT...getting to FF's---winning titles.

But I WAS NOT.

My statementhad nothing to do with being good enough to win titles---get to FF's. So why are you changing the criteria?

You disagreed with Gonzaga having good defensive teams. That is fine. That is the subject at hand. Not winning titles, FF's, etc, etc...

So answer the question....Do you not think Top 30 is good? Yes----No?

 

[IUfanBorden]

You are clueless on how KenPom works.

It is the body of work and not one game or a few games in the NCAA Tournament

We have no idea where Syracuse entered the NCAA Tournament at.

I do know this. Some things never change. Jim Boeheim has and always will be a coach who looks for his defense to get him through in the NCAA Tournament

When he did win the NCAA Championship.
It was because of his defense.

Ironic you say this.....Because it was YOU who pointed your argument to A GAME, or games---Not an entire season.

I don't think you understand KenPom.

And man you are ALL OVER the place..Your argument changes every 10 minutes.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

No, no---irrelevant. I said Gonzaga usually has a good, to really good defense. You asked when. So I showed you. You might be talking about winning in the NCAAT...getting to FF's---winning titles.

But I WAS NOT.

My statementhad nothing to do with being good enough to win titles---get to FF's. So why are you changing the criteria?

You disagreed with Gonzaga having good defensive teams. That is fine. That is the subject at hand. Not winning titles, FF's, etc, etc...

So answer the question....Do you not think Top 30 is good? Yes----No?

That is where the conservation was at...

Gonzaga being considered a favorite..

Some of us would say no until we see otherwise because we feel like on the second weekend.
Teams will find a way to slow down their offense and force Gonzaga to do the same.

Winning in the NCAA Tournament on the second weekend is pretty simple...

But difficult to actually perform it on the court

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Ironic you say this.....Because it was YOU who pointed your argument to A GAME, or games---Not an entire season.

I don't think you understand KenPom.

And man you are ALL OVER the place..Your argument changes every 10 minutes.

Because it is one game and your out. .
Reason why those KenPom numbers don't really prove anything a lot of times

Except for the fact that when Gonzaga had an elite defense...
They played for a NC.


When you play the last two minutes of games you need defensive stops and rebounds.

So far in Few's teams have had issues here on the second weekend

End of discussion
Reason why they have only advanced to One Final 4.

Compare that to Izzo...
Izzo is one of the coaches who has a program designed to play in March and April

 

[thebasketballreasons]

UCLA may lose again to start the season 0-2.

 

[IUfanBorden]

The direction of the conversation was about Gonzaga being a favorite...

Nope. Here is what started the converstion:

Prototypical Gonzaga team. All offense and no defense. Every game is a race to 100. Entertaining to watch. Zags shot 68% from the field in the first half, KU shot 55%. 😆

Nothing at all to do with being a favorite. It was in response to the score being 54-46 at halftime.

I responed with:

Gonzaga is normally pretty decent---to really good, defensively.

You then asked: "WHEN".

So I showed you.

YOU made it about FF's, titles, etc, etc....Not me. Not kevin. Not anyone.

You.

Stay on subject...

 

[IUfanBorden]

Because it is one game and your out. .
Reason why those KenPom numbers don't really prove anything a lot of times

Except for the fact that when Gonzaga had an elite defense...
They played for a NC.


When you play the last two minutes of games you need defensive stops and rebounds.

So far in Few's teams have had issues here on the second weekend

End of discussion
Reason why they have only advanced to One Final 4.

Compare that to Izzo...
Izzo is one of the coaches who has a program designed to play in March and April

Can you make up your mind? Is KenPom about an entire season---Or one game?

Those KenPom numbers are very,very accurate. Very accurate.

Playing ONE game very well doesn't make you an elite defense...But playing 90% of your games at an elite level DOES.

I have never seen someone change their angles as much as you....Crazy.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

If you can't see the weaknesses of Gonzaga in the NCAA Tournament yet...

There isn't anything I can say.

We will find out if we have one.
But to me they aren't the favorites

As of right now I will lean towards Villanova.
Like I have explained before on here the difference between Nova and Gonzaga is the reason why

 

[IUfanBorden]

If you can't see the weaknesses of Gonzaga in the NCAA Tournament yet...

There isn't anything I can say.

You might be a Top 5 troll...Top 5 for sure in avoiding a simple question.

The statement made about GU had NOTHING to do with NCAAT, FF's, etc,etc...I have shown you that.

My statement had NO relevance to what they do, or do not do in the NCAAT---b/c of their defense.

My statement was SIMPLE---They usually have a good, to really good defense. Simple. Easy.

I get it---You know you are wrong...But won't admit it. Its why you wont answer my DIRECT question. Which is...

Do you think being in the Top 30 is good? Its very simple. YES/NO.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

With coaching you have two things

1) Buy in

2) Overall core values of a program


Some good coaches can get #1 very easily but #2 is what determines championship programs.

For me Gonzaga under Few is one of those programs

 

[KrazyKat]

Top 30 defense is not really that good and won't get a team to accomplish anything in the NCAAT. Team D needs to be elite / great to win, approx. top 10. Only 3 times since 2005 has a final D ranking been below 11 but not worse than 18. Usually coincides with a top 10 offense.

I get the knock on Jay but have to look a little deeper:

• From 2005 - 2009, he had a good run, like Few now: 2 S16, 1 EE, 1 FF where each time he lost to the eventual national champion
• Had a rough stretch from 2010 - 2013, which he has acknowledged his recruiting errors during that time
• In 2014 he lost in the 2nd round to UConn who won the NC
• Since then, he's won 2 NC which I will take over Few's "accomplishments"

So, five times he's lost to the eventual champ and won it 2x in 14 years. Subtract the 4 year bad era and he's left with losses to Purdue, Wisconsin, and NC State.

Wisconsin and Purdue had higher KenPom rated defenses than 'Nova in 2017 and 2019, respectively. Purdue was also the 3 seed that year vs. 'Nova as a 6. NC State in 2015 is the really only truly bad loss (excusing the 2010 - 13 period as a whole) where 'Nova was a 1 seed and had a 12th ranked defense vs. 76 for NC State.

To Buford's point, National Champions KenPom defense ranking needs to be elite (within top 10, maybe 20) along with offense also ranked in the top 10 (UConn being the exception). Top 30 is not "good". The five times 'Nova lost to the champs, the KenPom defense rankings of their opponents were 1, 5, 7, 10, 18. When 'Nova won, its rankings were 5 and 11. Virginia was 5. Gonzaga's three best rankings were 1, 12, 16, which coincided with their best finishes of Runner-up, EE and EE. Ironically, when they had the #1 defense their offense ranking was their worst at 16. Twice D was at 18 with SS finishes.

Overall, 'Nova has had more success than Gonzaga since 2005 and historically as a whole it is not even close. Jay's teams have performed better than Few's.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

The year Mark Few did play in the Final 4 that WVU/Gonzaga Sweet 16 game usually is a game Few would lose .

Huggins mucked that game up.
Jevon Carter was one of my favorite guards to watch in the Big 12 and he played well in that game...

Trying to remember the guards name. He was a Southern California kid.
He played his ass off for Gonzaga. Reason why they won that game.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Jordan Matthews

 

[IUfanBorden]

Top 30 defense is not really that good and won't get a team to accomplish anything in the NCAAT. Team D needs to be elite / great to win, approx. top 10. Only 3 times since 2005 has a final D ranking been below 11 but not worse than 18. Usually coincides with a top 10 offense.

So, in your opinion, being in the Top 10% of all of CBB,is not good? Got it. Pretty crazy of me to consider a team that is rated 30th, out of 351 teams, should be considered good.

Crazy times.

 

[IUfanBorden]

With coaching you have two things

1) Buy in

2) Overall core values of a program


Some good coaches can get #1 very easily but #2 is what determines championship programs.

For me Gonzaga under Few is one of those programs

Curious---does ONE title make you a championship program/coach? Is winning "A" title create that much of a leap?

Can a coach be great, w/o winning a National title?

See to me, its not about JUST that. I mean is John Calipari suddenly a better coach b/c he finally won a title? Is Kevin Ollie on the same level----He does have a title.

To much emphasis is put on winning a title. Its is very, very hard to do. Very hard. Often does the best team win.

Few has a very, very good program. The past 5 seasons, last season and this season, he's had some very, very good teams. Maybe he never wins the whole thing. Maybe he does. IMO, it changes nothing.

 

[KrazyKat]

That is roughly middle of the pack (30 - 50%) of 64 tournament teams. If you want to compare to the bottom 300 or so, then sure it is great but not when being considered for winning the NCAAT.

 

[SheriffBufordTJustice]

Kevin Ollie got the tail in of Jim Calhoun's program.
Truthfully that was Calhoun's championship.

We saw that as time went on

 

[rockycard]

Louisville won an ugly game. Now we have four players injured 😩

 

[TechFan88]

Louisville won an ugly game. Now we have four players injured 😩

I was kind of happy that last free throw didn't go in after that foul call. But as a fan of neither team OT basketball would have been fun.

 

[dukedevilz]

Your argument is getting back to my point.

You have to be a team who wants to take over games on the defensive end

I misspoke earlier but totally forgotten the Gonzaga/WVU Sweet 16 game

That is a game where I believe his team showed what it needed

So these games being close.. .
Because when it comes down to it you need defensive stops

Basketball hasn't and never will change.
Defense is turned up when the elite teams play and the cream rises to the top on the back of your defense

Gonzaga has won games that came down to the wire, too. In recent years, not only West Virginia, but also Ohio State, Northwestern, UNC Greensboro, and South Carolina. In the past 5 tournaments, they've also beaten Baylor, Florida State, Seton Hall, Xavier, Iowa, Utah, and UCLA by double-digits.

Gonzaga's league guarantees them a high seed in the tourney year after year, which means that they're likely playing a weak team until the Sweet 16.

I don't think they deserve loads of praise simply because they avoided the 2nd-round disasters that happened to Wright, Self, K, etc.

As always, the truth is probably somewhere in-between. Most people either overpraise or undervalue them.

That's not accurate. Saint Mary's went 27-5 and in 2016 and 28-5 in 2018 - and missed the tournament both years. On top of that, they were #33 in the KenPom rankings before the 2016 NCAAT and #25 before the 2018 NCAAT. And in 2018, Gonzaga had a record of 30-4 and ended up with a 4 seed. The reason why Gonzaga sometimes gets a 1 or 2 seed is because they play quality teams in the OOC schedule and win about 75% of those games.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Gonzaga has won games that came down to the wire, too. In recent years, not only West Virginia, but also Ohio State, Northwestern, UNC Greensboro, and South Carolina. In the past 5 tournaments, they've also beaten Baylor, Florida State, Seton Hall, Xavier, Iowa, Utah, and UCLA by double-digits.



That's not accurate. Saint Mary's went 27-5 and in 2016 and 28-5 in 2018 - and missed the tournament both years. On top of that, they were #33 in the KenPom rankings before the 2016 NCAAT and #25 before the 2018 NCAAT. And in 2018, Gonzaga had a record of 30-4 and ended up with a 4 seed. The reason why Gonzaga sometimes gets a 1 or 2 seed is because they play quality teams in the OOC schedule and win about 75% of those games.

 

[dukedevilz]

I do know this. Some things never change. Jim Boeheim has and always will be a coach who looks for his defense to get him through in the NCAA Tournament

When he did win the NCAA Championship.
It was because of his defense.

Kansas going 12 for 30 from the free line helped, too.