NFL general discussion thread.

Discussion in 'College Basketball Board' started by LetsGoDuke301, Sep 8, 2019.

  1. JimboBBN

    JimboBBN Well-Known Member
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    For all the hate Brady has taken this year for regressing, how many people have actually watched what he's working with? I mean, it might truly be the worst receiving core I've ever seen. Every time I turn on a Pats game, its like these guys are getting paid to drop passes. Not to even mention his line has been beyond awful. Might actually be the worst in the NFL.

    I'm not a Patriots fan but I do like Brady. I think people have been over the top on their criticism of him this year. The only bright spot on that team is their defense, and even the D has been trash lately.

    Still not betting against this man come January.
     
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  2. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
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    LOL. Do you actually believe all this?

    Their D was always overrated, but that’s because they were hyping it as the greatest ever. Of course they’re not going to look as dominant when they start playing legit offenses. However, they just shut down the #1 offense a few weeks ago.

    People are really exaggerating the state of his receivers. Edelman might be the best slot receiver in the league and Sanu is very good. Not a whole lot beyond that, but come on. Only the best offenses have more than a few truly good receivers. Not to mention James White is an excellent receiving back.

    And the line might look terrible relative to the norm for Brady (never being touched), but it’s far from the worst.
     
  3. JimboBBN

    JimboBBN Well-Known Member
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    How many Pats games have you watched this year? Seriously? You make a good point about their D, especially last week. But if you honestly think Sanu is good (he is the third best receiver on any decent team) then you don't have a good handle on what a quality NFL receiver is. They have no running game, and outside of Edelman, they have no one that can get open, let alone catch a ball.

    He's working with probably the worst offensive talent he's had in his career. No joke. Including Oline.
     
  4. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
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    That's probably true, because he's always had good talent. Especially O-line. He's been pressured about 5 times in his career before this season.

    Sanu hasn't done much lately, which is probably injury-related, but he had around 850 yds last season and averaged 13 per catch.

    Regardless, calling it the worst receiver corps in the league is a big stretch. Edelman is damn near unstoppable, even when doubled, and James White is as good of a pass-catching back as there is.

    I mean, if you're the GOAT, how much help do you need? Does he have to have the best D in the league (which has endlessly set him up with short fields and/or scored points for him) AND top notch offensive personnel at every position?
     
  5. JimboBBN

    JimboBBN Well-Known Member
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    Is it a stretch, though? I mean, find me a team with worse receivers and I’m happy to have that discussion. He has Edelman and a running back as his two best pass catchers. You don’t see that as a personnel issue? Harry has been a huge disappointment, and I can’t name anyone else at the skill position they have. Their starting tight end has been cut by a number of teams multiple times. Sony Michell has been awful this year, like I mentioned, zero running game. It’s a lot for a 42 year old. I’m not arguing he’s playing well, but the patriots offensive woes start way in front of Tom Brady. Hell, that team is probably undefeated if his offensive talent around him is average. Maybe one loss to Lamar, but that would be it.
     
  6. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
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    Likewise, they're probably .500 at best if he didn't have a top notch defense. Do you realize how many short fields he's had and how many TDs that defense has scored? I mean, all the dude has to do is average more than 13/game to win. Is it asking that much? How many defenses in NFL history have allowed less than 13/game? They're also #1 in yards allowed.

    If he weren't an absolute statue (which he has always been), the line wouldn't be so much of an issue.

    I'm just not going to shed any tears for a guy who has had every advantage in the world for 2 decades. IMO, Brady would be nowhere near the conversation for GOAT if, say, he'd been drafted by the Bengals and never had Belichick.

    Btw, Mahomes went on the road against a really good D in his first NFL start with nothing but backups throughout the offense (his top WR was Albert Wilson--have you even heard of him?) and basically did whatever he wanted to. The GOAT shouldn't need every advantage just to look decent.
     
  7. JimboBBN

    JimboBBN Well-Known Member
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    Dude, he's 42 years old. Surely you don't expect him to be playing like he's 28 still, or even 35. You really don't think he's the greatest of all time because he's playing below his average at 42?? Give me a break, man.

    No one is asking you to shed tears for the guy, he's a 6 time champion with a smoking hot wife. He has it all already. I get what you're saying about BB, but lets not forget, he was fired and had won nothing before Tom Brady. We know Bill struggles without Brady, not so sure Brady would struggle as much without Bill.

    I have heard of Albert Wilson, that guy would be the second best pass catcher on the Patriots right now. And I like Mahomes a lot, he's a hell of a talent. Could end up as one of the greats, for sure.
     
  8. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
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    Please. Wilson can barely get on the field for the freaking Dolphins. He's never had a season even close to Sanu's last few years. Wilson would maybe be the 4th-best pass catcher for the Patriots behind Edelman, White and Sanu.

    And Belichick has most definitely been able to win without Brady (since taking over the Patriots). Garoppolo won all his starts there and Matt freaking Cassel went 11-5 (and put up similar numbers to Brady's next season, btw).

    I'm not expecting Brady to do the same things that he did at 28. But I've never viewed him as the GOAT. Put a Marino (or several others) in that situation and the production would have been absurd.
     
  9. JimboBBN

    JimboBBN Well-Known Member
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    Yea, we just won't agree on the receiver situation. I've watched this team play quite a bit this season, and they are pretty pathetic all around. The only time they're productive is when Brady throws to Edelman every other play. Sanu is a WR3 at best and the rest of his receivers are ass. The fact that you keep having to list a running back as a top target tells me all I need to know about that.

    I noticed you skipped right over his Cleveland years. I guess those didn't happen? Brady made BB much more than the other way around. Its 50/50 at the very best for Belichick.

    Marino, lol. Dude has one title game appearance and lost. Not even in the same league as Brady, the true GOAT.
     
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  10. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
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    If you're going to give Brady all the excuses in the world, you have to acknowledge what Marino was working with. Along with all the injury issues (modern medicine has come a long way since). Marino was an absurd talent. Probably the best passer ever. I don't care if he didn't win a SB. In freaking 1984, he threw for about 5100 yds and 48 TDs. That would be like someone putting up about 6500 and 60 TDs today.

    With Belichick's defense and strategy? A few years w/ Randy Moss? Forget it. He'd be considered the GOAT by a mile.

    I also think that Rodgers was much better in his prime.

    The Cleveland years frankly are somewhat irrelevant to me, considering his rampant cheating began around 2000. And again, how do you explain Matt Cassel going 11-5 with similar numbers to Brady's?
     
  11. bMORE607

    bMORE607 Well-Known Member
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    They had a good team with Cassel, but they missed the playoffs because they missed Brady. Brady makes them that much better, but his best days might be behind him.
     
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  12. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
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    They missed the playoffs at 11-5. That's bad luck and nothing else. Brady went 10-6 the next season.
     
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  13. bMORE607

    bMORE607 Well-Known Member
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    So Matt Cassel is just as good as Tom Brady? This is the hill you wanna die on?
     
  14. JimboBBN

    JimboBBN Well-Known Member
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    I've actually acknowledged in our discussion he isn't playing as well as he used to. My first post on the subject was simply stating that for all the Brady hate and criticism that's been going on this season, I don't think people are really analyzing the people he's working with, or lack thereof. I mean think about it, his best receiver all time outside Moss for a year is probably Dion Branch, right? I think that says something all itself. He had Gronk (kind of), but other than that, Brady has been winning with subpar receivers his entire career. I'm willing to admit he's mostly had a pretty good line up until this point, he's done more with less than people are willing to give him credit for.

    If Marino was all that great, he would have won a little more. I'm sure his arm talent was spectacular, being a good quarterback is more than having a talented arm.

    Matt Cassel missed the playoffs that year. When's the last time Tom Brady missed the playoffs?
     
  15. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
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    Did I say that?

    I’m saying that they should have been a playoff team at 11-5. That’s an extremely rare circumstance. Last year’s SB winning Patsies were 11-5.
     
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  16. bMORE607

    bMORE607 Well-Known Member
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    No you keep implying the Brady isn’t as good as he is. It’s weird hill to die on.
     
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  17. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
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    He's the most "successful" QB of all time. That doesn't make him the greatest or most talented. It's highly subjective. Plenty of people would argue that Marino or Rodgers are the most talented QBs of all time. I think that Manning, Elway, Montana and several others were at least Brady's equal.
     
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  18. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
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    Welker and Gronk were as good as it gets. He's had others that were really good for at least a year or two. But great line play can negate the need for greatness at every skill position.

    Since you apparently haven't seen much footage of Marino, I'll use Rodgers. If Aaron Rodgers had been QB of the Patriots under Belichick throughout those years, are you telling me that he wouldn't have dominated the league?

    Cassel missed the playoffs at 11-5. Brady made the playoffs at 10-6 the next season and 11-5 last year. Just an unlucky break.

    You're not going to get me to admit that Brady was more important than Belichick to those cheaters' legacy.
     
  19. JimboBBN

    JimboBBN Well-Known Member
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    We can agree to disagree, that’s fine. Rodgers is overrated IMO.
     
  20. bMORE607

    bMORE607 Well-Known Member
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  21. JimboBBN

    JimboBBN Well-Known Member
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  22. bMORE607

    bMORE607 Well-Known Member
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    Complete proved me wrong as well. I will readily admit I didn't like the pick, but I wasn't one of the people calling him a bust before he even played a snap. He isn't a perfect passer and the Ravens don't ask him to be, but he has shown improvement from year 1 to year 2. Holding onto Greg Roman might be the key to his development.
     
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  23. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
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    The Patriots throw a lot, so it makes sense that they'd be high in drops, particularly Edelman. He's constantly targeted. But the difference between NE and the top offenses in the league is about half a drop per game (or less).
     
  24. MrBaracus

    MrBaracus Well-Known Member
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    BTW, Edelman is also about 40 yards from being top 5 in the NFL in receiving yards. I think that more than makes up for the occasional drop.
     
  25. dtgold88

    dtgold88 Well-Known Member
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    "won all his starts there" for Jimmy G? I guess, but only 2. How did Brissett do? One game they won when the D shut out the other team. Brissett was pretty bad (11-19, no TDs passing). In the other game they lost and were shut out.

    I do like Marino and maybe in a different time.......
     
  26. dtgold88

    dtgold88 Well-Known Member
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    I don't completely agree with what he's saying but clearly that's not what he said. He said they went 11-5 with Cassell then 10-6 the next year with Brady. That is factually correct.
     
  27. dtgold88

    dtgold88 Well-Known Member
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    Mostly agree with your POV here, but think you are underestimating Marino. Many of his seasons the Dolphins' D was pretty bad. Can't recall him ever playing with a stud RB (remember what TDavis did for Elway?).
     
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  28. dtgold88

    dtgold88 Well-Known Member
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    agree other than Welker. A very good WR, but as good as it gets? I'm thinking Brady and Manning helped him a lot more than he helped them.
     
  29. dtgold88

    dtgold88 Well-Known Member
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    Not ashamed to admit he was far better than I ever thought he'd be. Baker can never be the athlete he is, so I only hope he can emulate him off the field.
     
  30. dtgold88

    dtgold88 Well-Known Member
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    Guessing he's far better than his own team thought. Otherwise why take Hurst before him and wait until he dropped all the way down to 32.

    Pretty much entire league (or any team needing a QB) missed on him.
     
  31. bMORE607

    bMORE607 Well-Known Member
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    It was a perfect storm type situation. There are only a handful of teams he could have been successful at. I think that’s why a lot of people thought the Patriots at the end of the first round would have been the place for him to go.
     
  32. dtgold88

    dtgold88 Well-Known Member
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    Not sure I'm buying that. Bmore has an outstanding staff, sure, but I think many teams could have figured how to use him. Not all, of course.
     
  33. bMORE607

    bMORE607 Well-Known Member
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    No. There is a reason teams chew through QBs and coaches. Its an organizational thing. Plus some organizations would have insisted he move to WR and his refusal would have deterred them away.
     
  34. dtgold88

    dtgold88 Well-Known Member
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    I agree if your argument is teams just thought of him as a WR and wouldn't even give him a chance. But most teams willing to give him a shot at QB would have figured out how to make him successful. As successful this quickly? Who knows?
     
  35. JimboBBN

    JimboBBN Well-Known Member
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    I am too young to remember Marino at his best so I will take your word on him. Been a while, dt, hope all is well buddy! Both of our NFL teams are absolute ass this year, and fully expecting Ohio state to put it on Kentucky tomorrow.
     
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  36. dtgold88

    dtgold88 Well-Known Member
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    No doubt a down year.....hoping your ex coach makes his way here.
     
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  37. JimboBBN

    JimboBBN Well-Known Member
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    Rooting for Ron wherever he lands. Hopefully in the AFC. He’s a good coach, just time to move on in Carolina.
     
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  38. dtgold88

    dtgold88 Well-Known Member
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    And if he leaves I'm rooting for Freddie to land in our division.
     
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  39. bMORE607

    bMORE607 Well-Known Member
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    You should have kept Gregg or went with Arians, imo.
     
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  40. dtgold88

    dtgold88 Well-Known Member
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    Never wanted Greggggggg but agree should have hired Arians and if they liked him so much name Freddie OC (Arians had worked with him, campaigned for job and probably goes along with it).
     

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