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Jordan Documentary

The impression I got was that Jordan just didn’t know much about the Senate race and likely didn’t care all that much about it. Not everybody out there is invested in politics. The problem I had with it is there were 1 or 2 guys in the documentary who seemed to take the moral superiority high ground over him for having lack of interest in that particular Senate race. I guess I wouldn’t really say I had a problem with it but that kind of mentality is just never flattering. I believe one of the men at the time immediately afterwards said Ali would be remembered forever while Jordan would just be a blip on the radar, or something to that effect. It’s like man you’ve got a lot to work on in your world if that’s your go to public statement of Jordan not endorsing the guy you want to win the Senate race.
That dude is a huge race-baiter. Saying that, MJ has always taken some heat for not being very invested in helping the black community. I’m sure he’s donated money, but he never wanted his face in front of it, and I think it was probably a pretty conscious decision on his part. He didn’t want to alienate anyone, even republicans. He wanted to smile for the cameras, and that’s it. To each his own, I guess.
 
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I disagree with most of what you said. No politician was demanding public support. You don't know what is on the minds of 99.9 percent of Jordan fans. And what you see as "using someones fame" would be seen by some as "someone standing up for something more important than money."

Anyway, we can move on. Just pointing out that one persons opinion is just theirs. I don't think four minutes spent on the comment, especially since Jordan is well-known for avoiding anything that could "tarnish his image"/money making potential in a world where there are guys who used their position to take a noticeable stand on issues than sports, like Robertson or Ali or Kareem or any number of guys.
Demand....expectation....whatever you want to call it, it's not rational to ask for someones public support and than hold it against them if they are not interested. I used 99% b/c almost zero people stopped buying his stuff.....or watching him.....or saying he was the greatest of all time. People do not get to decide whats important for another person to stand up for. They have the freedom to hold it against him---but it isnt right. Robertson/Ali/Kareem will not be remembered by the masses on the level Jordan is/was/will be.
 
That dude is a huge race-baiter. Saying that, MJ has always taken some heat for not being very invested in helping the black community. I’m sure he’s donated money, but he never wanted his face in front of it, and I think it was probably a pretty conscious decision on his part. He didn’t want to alienate anyone, even republicans. He wanted to smile for the cameras, and that’s it. To each his own, I guess.
Maybe. But we also know from countless sources that his mind is in a place of competition just about every minute of the day. I remember reading about his addiction to Words with Friends when that app came out and how he would play the maximum amount of games the app would allow him to and it consumed his entire day. He would play and play and play until he was crushing every one of his friends on there and when you didn't play he'd let you know that it was your turn. That's a certain level of drive and competitive nature that none of us will probably ever understand. It's not crazy to think that he just didn't follow world events simply because he was too consumed with gambling, golf, throwing quarters against a wall (love that, btw), basketball, cards and anything else out there he could play that resulted in a winner and a loser.
 
Bill Russell disagrees.

Russell was characterize as the angry black man his entire career. Mainly because he felt the need to speak out.

You saw some of it with LeBron who wanted to bring that back.
People were upset with LeBron for political reasons.

This hasn't changed in this country.

Like I said earlier it had nothing to do with politics.
It was the Struggle. What is Black Identity in America.
Some feel like no matter how great their life is it will never be what it should until blacks are treated fairly across the board.
Like I said in the previous post Helms thought pre 1960's North Carolina should exist forever.
Trust me, I back that notion and understand it 100%. I was merely commenting that Jordan didn’t fit that mold nor wanted to be that guy. He was all about the Benjamin’s.
 
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Maybe. But we also know from countless sources that his mind is in a place of competition just about every minute of the day. I remember reading about his addiction to Words with Friends when that app came out and how he would play the maximum amount of games the app would allow him to and it consumed his entire day. He would play and play and play until he was crushing every one of his friends on there and when you didn't play he'd let you know that it was your turn. That's a certain level of drive and competitive nature that none of us will probably ever understand. It's not crazy to think that he just didn't follow world events simply because he was too consumed with gambling, golf, throwing quarters against a wall (love that, btw), basketball, cards and anything else out there he could play that resulted in a winner and a loser.
Or, he also wanted to win at marketing himself. And, he did.
 
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I think Jordan was just obsessed with basketball and competition and didn't care much for that other stuff. I also think he looked at his brand as a competition as well. One he clearly won. Plus, with people like Lebron the more you speak out or become an 'activist' the more you can mess up with the things you say or do or the people or causes you support. We've seen that with him where he sort of speaks up when it is convenient for him at times and not others. There is certainly nothing wrong with being opinionated on that stuff but there is a drawback, especially since no one is consistent all the time. I think Jordan understood that.
 
Or, he also wanted to win at marketing himself. And, he did.
Yeah, I think he certainly did think of himself first and foremost in regards to anything he did publicly. I just don’t think that was the only thing we should take away from him choosing not to endorse Gantt.
 
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Yeah, I think he certainly did think of himself first and foremost in regards to anything he did publicly. I just don’t think that was the only thing we should take away from him choosing not to endorse Gantt.



I think he did say he supported Gantt but he didn't endorse him publicly. Personally I thought he should of done more than giving Gantt money for his campaign but I do understand why he chose to do it the way he did. Rich, famous black man, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't especially when it comes to social/political issues.
 
True or false. ESPN is trying to make a bigger deal out of the Republican buy sneakers too comment than it ever was back then or ever has been since.


In Chicago I don't even remember this being a story. Maybe it was a bigger deal in North Carolina.
 
Yeah, he was a North Carolinian and an African American and a Democrat asked to publicly endorse a man he likely privately supported against a man who is one of the more famous public servant disgusting racists in recent times. Some people would see that as something that is morally "right" and more important than money. Others think the money matters more. The sneaker comment was pretty famous, and might have meant more to an African American at the time than a white kid who was in their teens or whathaveyou.

It is interesting... was discussing the all-time greats, it is amazing how many of them played with other greats, and how that often isn't quite "accounted for" when we discuss what makes a good player.

Magic wouldn't have won so much without guys like Rambis and Kareem and Worthy.

Bird wouldn't have won so much without guys like Parrish and and McHale and Ainge.

Kobe wouldn't have won so much without guys like Shaq and Gasol.

Jordan wouldn't have won so much without having Pippen, Rodman (who is maybe the best rebounder in history) and Kerr (who is the leading three point shooter in history) on his team.

Any time people discuss great players but leave out the entire "team" aspect of the game, or only focus on wins and losses (of which a single player is only technically 9% of), they clearly aren't getting the difference between a game like basketball and football, and games like singles tennis.

Great show. Enjoying that they aren't just focused on Jordan, but on the whole team. Haven't seen the most recent episode, but waiting on them to discuss Kerr more... he is showing up a lot in interviews, and they've done a good job at giving each player a focus... we've seen Ho Grant and John Paxson and Toni K, but not Kerr yet.

BTW, holy shit... Seth Curry is second ALL TIME in 3 point percentage in NBA history. That's amazing.

LOL, MJ would've won just as much with or without Steve Kerr. Kerr was barely a factor on those teams aside from hitting couple memorable shots. Lots of revisionist history trying to paint Kerr as a key member of the dynasty just because he ended up one of the most famous. He was extremely replaceable.
 
LOL, MJ would've won just as much with or without Steve Kerr. Kerr was barely a factor on those teams aside from hitting couple memorable shots. Lots of revisionist history trying to paint Kerr as a key member of the dynasty just because he ended up one of the most famous. He was extremely replaceable.
Plus he said “Kobe wouldn’t have won so much without Shaq”. He picked a worse GOAT and implied that a better GOAT was the helper in winning those championships. No. Without Shaq those Laker teams barely make the playoffs. He was the best player in the league by far during those seasons.
 
That dude is a huge race-baiter. Saying that, MJ has always taken some heat for not being very invested in helping the black community. I’m sure he’s donated money, but he never wanted his face in front of it, and I think it was probably a pretty conscious decision on his part. He didn’t want to alienate anyone, even republicans. He wanted to smile for the cameras, and that’s it. To each his own, I guess.

For sure, that "reporter" or whatever he was was a moron.

But yeah, Jordan has always taken flak for that. He's always been seen as a guy who only cared about competition and money. He has donated a ton of money to Democrats, but never associated publically with them, because he didn't want to alienate possible customers. Not saying that is wrong or right, but it is true.

Demand....expectation....whatever you want to call it, it's not rational to ask for someones public support and than hold it against them if they are not interested. I used 99% b/c almost zero people stopped buying his stuff.....or watching him.....or saying he was the greatest of all time. People do not get to decide whats important for another person to stand up for. They have the freedom to hold it against him---but it isnt right. Robertson/Ali/Kareem will not be remembered by the masses on the level Jordan is/was/will be.

First off, Ali will DEFINITELY be remembered by the masses on the level of Jordan. Dude, Ali is one of the most famous humans on earth. I get that he is older, but that is nuts. And Kareem... dude, who do you think ISN'T remembering Kareem? Okay, they may not be the faces that launched Nike and Gatorade, but trying to argue that those guys aren't going to be remembered in the same way is silly. They will be remembered differently.

And just because people didn't stop buying his stuff or thinking he was the greatest of all time doesn't mean it didn't matter to them. You can say "Damn, I wish so and so would do this thing" and still like them and appreciate them and think they are great or whatever. It isn't black and white like that. The fact that two of the only black posters here have said that it mattered to them and they remember it should be a pretty good indication that yes, it DID matter to some people, even if it didn't matter to you, and even if they don't let that single aspect of it change their opinion of his basketball ability or whatever.

It was a big deal here. I was living in San Diego at the time but being from here my family and friends were clued in big time.

Yep. I think people are not quite understanding how all this stuff is connected. When MJ was born, segregation was still legal. His parents, his family... they lived through it. MJ himself talks about the Klan in North Carolina. The fact that there was a chance for the first black man in NC history to take a seat from Jesse Helms, who was the FACE of segregation in the South, was most assuredly something every black North Carolinian knew about, and I don't think MJ, who was from North Carolina and who had very aware parents and who played for Dean Smith and actually played in North Carolina and donated to the campaign, didn't know about it. While the sneakers comment was off-hand (and witty), it did sort of show his approach to it, right or wrong.

LOL, MJ would've won just as much with or without Steve Kerr. Kerr was barely a factor on those teams aside from hitting couple memorable shots. Lots of revisionist history trying to paint Kerr as a key member of the dynasty just because he ended up one of the most famous. He was extremely replaceable.

The guy who shot the highest three point percentage in history and who hit some huge shots was extremely replaceable? Uhhhh... okay. What about Rodman and Pippen?

As to the actual obvious bigger point: do you disagree that many of the players we see as the GOATs played with other players who were great, and that plays a big part in the accomplishments that make them so great?
 
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Maybe Jordan donates in the background partly because he doesn't want the attention for personal reasons as well. Some people don't need everyone patting them on the back for every dollar they donate. That may be a small part of it but it could be somewhat relevant.
 
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Maybe Jordan donates in the background partly because he doesn't want the attention for personal reasons as well. Some people don't need everyone patting them on the back for every dollar they donate. That may be a small part of it but it could be somewhat relevant.

I don't think MJ worries about pats on the back... I think he understands the impact it will have on sales. When athletes do or say something that makes some customers uncomfortable, it can hurt them in some ways, and some people aren't okay with that.
 
BTW, since we are all home a lot right now, and seem to be into basketball, and watch a lot of TV, you all should REALLY watch "Shut up and Dribble." It is only three episodes, but is a great look at how basketball and race intersect. Given that everyone here loves basketball, and that the sport has an incredible history... it is a fantastic show, with a ton of great history, and which helps highlight the variety of issues, both professional and personal, that the players we cheer, and basketball itself, has faced... and I would hope nobody writes it off just because it deals with big issues.

Also, folks should definitely be watching "For the Love of the Game." By the time you finish the 200+ parts of that show, you feel like you understand literally the entire history of basketball, from the biggest picture to the most personal.
 
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The guy who shot the highest three point percentage in history and who hit some huge shots was extremely replaceable? Uhhhh... okay. What about Rodman and Pippen?

As to the actual point, do you disagree that many of the players we see as the GOATs played with other players who were great, and that plays a big part in the accomplishments that make them so great?


Rodman and Pippen? You mean actual HOF players who were key players on the dynasty? Yea, they were important. Steve Kerr? Barely a rotation player who came off the bench and hit a few shots here and there. Even mentioning Kerr in the same sentence as those other two is disrespectful.

also, the only reason Kerr is the all time 3pt % leader is because the league moved the stripe up for a few years in the late 90s. Kerr was barely an afterthought in the NBA back then. A great 3 pt shooter in an era where shooting 3 of them a game was considered excessive. Doesn't hold nearly the same value as a 3pt shooter nowadays.


As for the actual point, I don't really care about that. It's a chicken egg debate.
 
Rodman and Pippen? You mean actual HOF players who were key players on the dynasty? Yea, they were important. Steve Kerr? Barely a rotation player who came off the bench and hit a few shots here and there. Even mentioning Kerr in the same sentence as those other two is disrespectful.

also, the only reason Kerr is the all time 3pt % leader is because the league moved the stripe up for a few years in the late 90s. Kerr was barely an afterthought in the NBA back then. A great 3 pt shooter in an era where shooting 3 of them a game was considered excessive. Doesn't hold nearly the same value as a 3pt shooter nowadays.


As for the actual point, I don't really care about that. It's a chicken egg debate.

So I will ignore the Kerr stuff, because I don't actually care about the small point.

My point was how much do TEAMMATES impact greatness? So if you take a player with incredible talent, and put them on a terrible team, are we able to see their greatness, or is it overlooked? And how does that impact our discussion of great players? This came up as we were discussing Grant Hill, and where he fits in the discussion of greatness. (Although injury played a bigger role in his career than teammates, I think, but that's another thing worth discussing.)
 
I don't think MJ worries about pats on the back... I think he understands the impact it will have on sales. When athletes do or say something that makes some customers uncomfortable, it can hurt them in some ways, and some people aren't okay with that.

Yeah, I don't either. I think a lot of these players now who speak out do worry about pats on the back though. They badly need affirmation and attention.
 
So I will ignore the Kerr stuff, because I don't actually care about the small point.

My point was how much do TEAMMATES impact greatness? So if you take a player with incredible talent, and put them on a terrible team, are we able to see their greatness, or is it overlooked? And how does that impact our discussion of great players? This came up as we were discussing Grant Hill, and where he fits in the discussion of greatness. (Although injury played a bigger role in his career than teammates, I think, but that's another thing worth discussing.)


This is a chicken egg debate. how much do teammates impact greatness? Can't ask that without asking how much greatness impacts teammates.

You can ask where would MJ be without Scottie and Rodman? But, that only brings up an equally relevant question in where would Scottie and Rodman be without MJ? Would Scottie have become a HOF superstar without MJ's influence? Rodman was a malcontent on his way out of the league in San Antonio when the Bulls grabbed him. Would Rodman have gone on to rebound his career if he wasn't around the influence of MJ?


That's why I think it's a pointless discussion to have IMO.
 
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Yeah, I don't either. I think a lot of these players now who speak out do worry about pats on the back though. They badly need affirmation and attention.

Hm, I have a hard time attributing such nefarious reasons for it. It makes much more sense to me that you have people who have lived a life thinking something genuine and using their platform to address it because they feel they have the opportunity and even the responsibility to do so. I don't know... I think most people are good, and do things for the right reasons, especially since most of the athletes who speak out now receive avalanches of bad press and boycotts and attacks, including death threats and the like, you know? I look at what guys like KAT and Richard Sherman and Lebron James do, beyond just speaking out and getting to things like charity and the like, and I just have a hard time saying they are generally doing it for attention, rather than doing it because they feel it is the right thing to do.
 
This is a chicken egg debate. how much do teammates impact greatness? Can't ask that without asking how much greatness impacts teammates.

You can ask where would MJ be without Scottie and Rodman? But, that only brings up an equally relevant question in where would Scottie and Rodman be without MJ? Would Scottie have become a HOF superstar without MJ's influence? Rodman was a malcontent on his way out of the league in San Antonio when the Bulls grabbed him. Would Rodman have gone on to rebound his career if he wasn't around the influence of MJ?


That's why I think it's a pointless discussion to have IMO.

If sports fans on forums avoided pointless discussions, we would have literally nothing left to post about.
 
Hm, I have a hard time attributing such nefarious reasons for it. It makes much more sense to me that you have people who have lived a life thinking something genuine and using their platform to address it because they feel they have the opportunity and even the responsibility to do so. I don't know... I think most people are good, and do things for the right reasons, especially since most of the athletes who speak out now receive avalanches of bad press and boycotts and attacks, including death threats and the like, you know?

I mean, I think it can be both. I don't question their intentions or beliefs. I think it is pretty obvious that many people like to be recognized and praised for the things they do though. Bad press and attacks (who has been attacked?) and death threats? They receive way more good press, praise, and positivity, which is good. That's how it should be.
 
BTW, how do people feel about this NBA player:

All Star in every year of their career but one.
First rookie to receive the most all star votes in any of the four major sports.
Led team in points, rebounds, and assists every year of his career
22 ppgs, 8 rpg, 6apg, 2 steals per game in his career.
Higher single season Box Plus Minus, Defensive Win Shares, and Value Over Replacement numbers than Kobe Bryant.
Elected to Hall of Fame.
 
BTW, how do people feel about this NBA player:

All Star in every year of their career but one.
First rookie to receive the most all star votes in any of the four major sports.
Led team in points, rebounds, and assists every year of his career
22 ppgs, 8 rpg, 6apg, 2 steals per game in his career.
Higher single season Box Plus Minus, Defensive Win Shares, and Value Over Replacement numbers than Kobe Bryant.
Elected to Hall of Fame.

Oh, I'm about done with that WWZ book. I've really enjoyed it. The format was pretty cool.
 
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I love THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA!...SMILE

!!!!!!!!!!!! GO TAR HEELS !!!!!!!!!!!
 
Yeah, I think that came first, right? I may at some point. I have to read the new King book when I'm done with this one.

not sure if it came out first, but the two books are not related so you can read them in any order. Survival Guide is an actual survival guide, not a story like WWZ. It's cool, Brooks put a lot of thought into it.
 
Some people remember it.
But the question becomes how many people would have if he spoke up for Gantt.

People are human and make mistakes.

In terms of his legacy. Jordan was much better on the court than off.
This is well known.

To be fair, it is harder to be better off the court than he was on it. Plus, what did he really do off the court that was a knock? Gambled? Gave millions of dollars to causes without promoting it to everyone? The main knock on him is that he wasn't outspoken. That is understandable. It also allowed him not to be a hypocrite like some others though. At least he owned who he was and didn't act like he was all about a cause (which is fine) and then wuss out when it came to his wallet.

The knock on Jordan not being a willing activist (outspoken activist at least) is fair though. It just isn't fair in comparison to others who speak out only when it is convenient and beneficial to them.
 
Really good episode tonight...


Scott Burrell has some friends in the locker room after a game....MJ is cordial...signs some autographs...takes some pics, then..........

Says---"Hey, UConn has a good womens team.."

Laughing

Got emotional at the end...

Good shit.
 
This is a chicken egg debate. how much do teammates impact greatness? Can't ask that without asking how much greatness impacts teammates.

You can ask where would MJ be without Scottie and Rodman? But, that only brings up an equally relevant question in where would Scottie and Rodman be without MJ? Would Scottie have become a HOF superstar without MJ's influence? Rodman was a malcontent on his way out of the league in San Antonio when the Bulls grabbed him. Would Rodman have gone on to rebound his career if he wasn't around the influence of MJ?


That's why I think it's a pointless discussion to have IMO.

Two things...

1. Rodman had already won two rings with the Pistons and was labeled the best rebounder to ever play the game before he went to the Bulls. He was gonna be in the HOF even if he never went to the bulls.

2. While I do think Jordan helped make Pippens career (although Scottie done pretty well without him) I don’t think he had much to do with Rodman being what Rodman was (refer back to #1). Rodman was a rebounding, lose cannon kinda guy before he came to the Bulls and he was the same (not as bad) after he got there.
 
Man, seeing Jordan talk about his dad made me miss my mom that much more. Lost her to cancer in 02 and it’s still hard to this day even though I knew she was gonna die. Couldn’t imagine how it feels knowing your parent was murdered.
 
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Man, seeing Jordan talk about his dad made me miss my mom that much more. Lost her to cancer in 02 and it’s still hard to this day even though I knew she was gonna die. Couldn’t imagine how it feels knowing your parent was murdered.


I feel your pain. Lost my mom 6 days before my 18th birthday, 2 weeks before I graduated HS and it's something you'll never get over.
 
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