Highest Ranking For Every Team 2019-2020

Discussion in 'College Basketball Board' started by duckboy33, Mar 16, 2020.

  1. duckboy33

    duckboy33 Well-Known Member
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    A10:
    Dayton - #3
    VCU - #20

    AAC:
    Memphis - #9
    Wichita State - #16
    Houston - #20

    ACC:
    Duke - #1
    Louisville - #1
    Florida State - #4
    North Carolina - #5
    Virginia - #5

    Big 12:
    Baylor - #1
    Kansas - #1
    Texas Tech - #11
    West Virginia - #12
    Texas - #22

    Big East:
    Butler - #5
    Creighton - #7
    Seton Hall - #8
    Villanova - #8
    Marquette - #18
    Xavier - #18

    Big Ten:
    Michigan State - #1
    Ohio State - #2
    Maryland - #3
    Michigan - #4
    Penn State - #9
    Iowa - #17
    Wisconsin - #18
    Illinois - #19
    Purdue - #23
    Rutgers - #24

    MWC:
    San Diego State - #4
    Utah State - #15

    PAC 12:
    Oregon - #4
    Arizona - #12
    Colorado - #16
    Washington - #20

    SEC:
    Kentucky - #1
    Auburn - #4
    Florida - #6
    Tennessee - #17
    LSU - #18

    WCC:
    Gonzaga - #1
    BYU - #14
    St. Mary's - #18
     
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  2. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    ACC has 5 teams that were in the top 5 lol. Sad and hilarious.
     
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  3. duckboy33

    duckboy33 Well-Known Member
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    UNC was the obvious tank. That said, I totally forgot Ohio State was ranked 2nd at one point this year.
     
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  4. Montana81

    Montana81 Well-Known Member
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    Michigan went from unranked to top 5 back to unranked quicker than any team I can remember.

    called Florida, Memphis and UNC all being overrated to start the season. Thought UL would be worse than they were though.

    I think the only reason St Mary’s is ever ranked is so the media can justify their annual campaign for Gonzaga to be a 1 seed when they play absolutely no one the last two and a half months of every season. “BUT ST MARYS” Eyeroll
     
  5. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    Have you watched Saint Mary's play this season?
     
  6. ThePhog08

    ThePhog08 Well-Known Member
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    Awe look at Iowa. They should get a participation trophy for #17
     
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  7. Montana81

    Montana81 Well-Known Member
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    I saw bits and pieces of two games. A 30 point loss to Gonzaga and an ot win over pacific.
     
  8. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    So you didn't see them beat Wisconsin, Arizona State by 40, Utah State, or BYU twice? They're a good team. I think most were expecting them to be a little better since they returned 8 of their top 9 guys from the previous year - a team that beat #1 Gonzaga just days before Selection Sunday. Even still, they were projected to be an 8 seed by most bracketologists. So, not exactly a terrible year.
     
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  9. Montana81

    Montana81 Well-Known Member
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    i saw enough to be confident they wouldn’t make the tournament if they played in a power 5 conference.
     
  10. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    You saw bits and pieces of two games. And based off that incredibly small sample size, you can conclusively say they wouldn't make the tournament if they played in a power conference? They played two games against Power 6 schools, Wisconsin and Arizona State. Both of those schools are projected to make the tournament, and both loss to Saint Mary's.

    Now, as this relates to Gonzaga and their "easy schedule", I would say it's foolish. In the last 5 years, Gonzaga is the only team to make it to the second weekend every year. And they did so in 2016 as an 11 seed. UNC is the only team with more tournament wins in that time span. So if you're going to suggest Gonzaga doesn't merit a 1 seed, I'd say the results of the tournament say otherwise.
     
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  11. Montana81

    Montana81 Well-Known Member
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    So because they’ve won more tourney games than anyone? They’ve been a 1 or 2 seed every year but 1. UNC the same thing. Hey what do you know, when you get an easy draw and a high seed you win more tourney games. Shocker.
     
  12. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    Other schools have been right there, too. And yet, Gonzaga is the only one of the schools that has made it to the Sweet 16 every year. It's almost like they're an elite program. Weird.

    UNC
    Seeds: 4, 1, 1, 2, 1
    Average Seed: 1.8
    Median: 1
    Tournament Wins: 16

    Gonzaga
    Seeds: 2, 11, 1, 4, 1
    Average Seed: 3.8
    Median: 2
    Tournament Wins: 15

    Duke
    Seeds: 1, 4, 2, 2, 1
    Average Seed: 2.0
    Median: 2
    Tournament Wins: 15

    Villanova
    Seeds: 1, 2, 1, 1, 6
    Average Seed: 2.2
    Median: 1
    Tournament Wins: 15

    Kentucky
    Seeds: 1, 4, 2, 5, 2
    Average Seed: 2.8
    Median: 2
    Tournament Wins: 13

    Kansas
    Seeds: 2, 1, 1, 1, 4
    Average Seed: 1.8
    Median: 1
    Tournament Wins: 12

    Virginia
    Seeds: 2, 1, 5, 1, 1
    Average Seed: 2.0
    Median: 1
    Tournament Wins: 11


    RECAP
    Average Seed (Tournament Wins in Parenthesis):

    UNC- 1.8 (16)
    Kansas- 1.8 (12)
    Virginia- 2.0 (11)
    Duke- 2.0 (15)
    Villanova- 2.2 (15)
    Kentucky- 2.8 (13)
    Gonzaga- 3.8 (15)
     
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  13. hailtoyourvictor

    hailtoyourvictor Well-Known Member
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    Eat me
     
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  14. Montana81

    Montana81 Well-Known Member
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    Gonzaga is a good program. They’d be a good program in a power 5 conference. They wouldn’t average 30+ wins a year. Nor would they be in the conversation for a 1 seed almost every year. They have an easier road to success than any other good or elite program every year because they play in a weak conference and the media doesn’t hold them to the same standard as other elite teams. They’re getting the best of both worlds. Getting to play a soft schedule and not being penalized for it.
     
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  15. SheriffBufordTJustice

    SheriffBufordTJustice Well-Known Member
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    In the minds of the ignorant
    Memphis and Arizona were the two I had major questions about.

    I was right about Arizona. They had the talent but too inexperienced.
     
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  16. supergreennole

    supergreennole Well-Known Member
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    I agree, looking at Dayton and SDSU, along with Gonzaga, there are another 10 programs this year that would have had those records if they had those schedules. I don’t think the inverse is true because it is just different to go on the road in P6 competition for the last two months and win unless you have done it before with a team that has experience doing so. And home games aren’t gimmies either
     
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  17. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    I'll give you San Diego State. They played really well in the OOC. But seemed to lose steam in conference play. I'm not budging on Dayton or Gonzaga, however.

    Dayton didn't lose a single game in regulation. The gap between them and Kansas isn't that big, IMO. Would Dayton lose more games? Sure, of course. But, I don't think any of the projected 2 or 3 seeds from the power conferences would have gone 29-2 or 31-2 with the same schedule. The 2 and 3 seeds aren't anything special. There's a reason why Gonzaga and Dayton are in the top 5 of just about every computer model out there. FSU, for example, was 7-5 in Quad 1/2 road games. Gonzaga was 6-1 in Quad 1/2 road games, losing only at BYU, a team ranked 9th in the NET.
     
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  18. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    I think the anti-Gonzaga hysteria is overplayed. The arguments are lazy. People say Gonzaga couldn't sustain that level of success in a Power 6 conference. Nonsense. Here's Gonzaga's record against P6 schools in years where they were projected as a 1 or 2 seed:

    2020: 5-1
    2019: 6-2
    2017: 5-0
    2015: 4-1
    2013: 7-2
    combined: 27-6 (81.8%)

    That winning percentage is roughly equivalent to going 15-3 in league play. Think about that. They're right at the same level of where 1 seeds finish in the conference standings. Here's one more stat to consider:

    Gonzaga's Quad 1 record in the aforementioned years: 31-8 (79.5%)
    Quad 1 record of top 4 teams in 2019 & 2020: 70-21 (76.9%)

    It's almost like Gonzaga has earned their top seeds.

    (The NET started in the 2018-19 season. I used the KenPom rankings to determine Quad 1 games from prior years).
     
  19. Crappy Davenpot

    Crappy Davenpot Well-Known Member
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    Almost as sad and hilarious as florida being ranked #6. Lmaojumpingsmile
     
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  20. RR30

    RR30 Well-Known Member
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    They wouldn't have such gaudy records. But it's foolish to believe they wouldn't be able to keep up. Especially this year where every conference sucked.
     
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  21. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    Oh for sure. But in order for Gonzaga to be a 1 seed, they have to have a gaudy record. If they have more than 3 losses, their chances of being a one seed are slim to none. I think it's reasonable to expect Gonzaga to have 5+ losses in a power conference in their good years. When you're in a power conference, however, you have a much higher margin for error. You can afford to lose 3-4 conference games, and 1-2 OOC games.
     
  22. Montana81

    Montana81 Well-Known Member
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    That’s not equivalent to most 1 seeds in most years though. Most 1 seeds from power 5 conferences end up with 10 plus quad 1 wins.

    Hell most of the 2 and 3 seeds end up with that too.

    so Gonzaga gets a pass from how the rest of the upper echelon teams are judged because they play in a shit conference. It’s a double standard.

    I’m fine with giving out seeds based on how strong a team actually is versus their record and who they’ve beaten and played. But do that for ALL teams. Even realizing that would have hurt UK this year because if I’m being honest we weren’t as good as our record.

    Im fine with seeding teams based on who they’ve played and beaten but stop making exceptions for certain teams. They don’t even do it for all mid majors. Wichita was top 10 in kenpom and sagarin one year and got a 10 seed and ended up with 30 wins! Double standards across the board.

    it’s funny, I absolutely understand why a duke fan would defend all this because it’s media driven double standards. And they’ve also benefitted from that type of stuff for years. Jay bilas pushes for the acc to get seeds they don’t deserve every season now(UNC last year and he was already pushing for Duke to get a higher seed than they deserved this year as well).
     
    22 Montana81, Mar 17, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2020
  23. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    Double standard? Please. I'm consistent. KenPom is based off of efficiency, not merit. If you used the KenPom rankings to designate quad games, the 2017 Wichita State team would have been 1-4 in Quad 1 Games. Their only Quad 1 win was in the MVC Tournament Final against #49 Illinois State. Regardless of what Cal believes, their resume was actually very underwhelming.

    Gonzaga, on the other hand, is winning close to 82% of their games against P6 schools - and just under 80% of their quad 1 games (in the 5 years I listed). That is merit based. Makes a lot more sense to compare winning percentage. And as I pointed out, they have a higher winning % in Quad 1 games compared to the 4 best power schools from those respective years. They earned those seeds.
     
  24. Montana81

    Montana81 Well-Known Member
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    Kenpom also had Gonzaga as an all time great team going into the tourney last year and that was not the case. Their efficiency numbers were inflated by running up the score on bad competition. Once they got into the tourney and started playing legit comp again those numbers dropped. They were very good last year but the end result just proves that the computers overrate them during conference play because computers haven’t quite figured out how to accurately measure strength of schedule 1-351(are we still at 351 teams?)
     
  25. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    lol really? They beat Baylor by 12. Beat FSU by 14. And they lost to the national runners-up by 6. Was a tie game with 6 minutes left. I'm not convinced you've watched Gonzaga play very much.

    The funny thing is, Gonzaga has won two more games in the tournament than Kentucky in the last 5 years - with almost the exact same seeds. But sure, let's pretend it's because Gonzaga is this overrated team that gets a free pass.
     
  26. Montana81

    Montana81 Well-Known Member
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    And from 2016 on Kentucky hasn’t been very good. I wouldn’t rate us as a top 5 program during that time. Zero 1 seeds. The only year I believed we were a legit contender was 2017. Said already we were probably overrated going into the tourney if it had happened this year. 11 losses in 2018. Said on here last year in February we were too weak at point guard to expect too much and never wavered. 2016 was a donut team. Our 2015 team would have had their way with any Gonzaga team however.
     
  27. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    My point is that Kentucky-Gonzaga have had essentially the same seeds during that same span - and GU has netted +2 on total wins in the NCAAT.

    Gonzaga: 1, 1, 2 4, 11
    Kentucky: 1, 2, 2, 4, 5

    The only difference is Gonzaga has had one additional year as a 1 seed. They've both been a 1 or 2 seed three of the past 5 years.They both had one year as a 4 seed. Kentucky's worst year was a 5 seed (2018), whereas Gonzaga's worst year was as an 11 seed (2016). Almost identical seeds.

    So I don't see much rationale for dismissing Gonzaga when UNC is the only other school to win more NCAAT games in this span. They've been winning Quad 1 Games / Power 6 games at roughly 80%. Hardly chump change. They're are an elite program. And get ready for more of the same. Gonzaga is more than likely going to start the the 2020-21 season as the #1 team.
     
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  28. Montana81

    Montana81 Well-Known Member
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    I’ll say this, if ever there were a year that I would have been okay with them being a one seed over most of the power 5 teams it would have been this one because honestly, other than Kansas everyone was pretty underwhelming. And Baylor. Baylor had like 5 top 25 wins before the conference schedule even started.

    I do think FSU should have gotten more talk as a 1 seed depending on how the acc tourney went.

    Dayton is the team I was looking at that really didn’t beat anyone worth mention all season and was probably going to get a 1 seed. Again, really good team, probably would have been fine in a power 5 conference but I think they had 1 win all year against a sure fire tourney team.

    And yeah I’m used to the Gonzaga stuff now. I expect it. I just don’t agree with it. And I’ll continue to believe their metrics are inflated yearly by running up the score on bad conference teams. And even if the St Mary’s and BYU’s are better than I’m giving credit for, look at the middle and bottom of that conference and compare those team to typical middle of the pack and bottom dwelling power 5 teams. The difference in physicality and overall athleticism is just night and day.

    Duke loses games this year to Wake Forest and gets obliterated by NC State. Middle of the pack and bottom dwelling acc teams but teams that clearly have talent and high d1 athleticism capable of playing to their potential on any given night and knocking off a top 10 team. Gonzaga doesn’t have to deal with that. And it’s pretty much the same in every power 5 conference. The last place team in the pac 12 had 3 former Macdonald’s all Americans.
     
  29. Montana81

    Montana81 Well-Known Member
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    There’s a reason Kyle wiltjer couldn’t defend a light post at Kentucky and had no issues at Gonzaga. Every sec team eventually started abusing him. He wasn’t athletic enough to play defense in that conference. Cal could have done a better job of hiding him but he still would have been a liability out there. And that was with an all world rim protector next to him for most of the season. Literally one of the worst defensive players I’ve ever seen in a UK uniform. No issues in the WCC.
     
  30. Original_Irish

    Original_Irish Well-Known Member
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    The reason that Wiltjer was so awesome at Gonzaga is because they could hide his defensive limitations. Pairing him with Pkarnowski (NCAA leader in career wins) and Domantas Sanonis (current nba all star) hid his defensive limitations.

    He was also 2 years older by the time he was playing at Gonzaga. That makes a difference, and he was a straight killer on offense no matter who he played.
     
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  31. Montana81

    Montana81 Well-Known Member
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    Fair points. He’s one of the best 3 point shooters I’ve ever seen. And admittedly both Gonzaga teams he played on were far better than that 2nd Kentucky team.
     
  32. Original_Irish

    Original_Irish Well-Known Member
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    I don’t think anyone is going to convince you that your take on Gonzaga is wrong.

    Your belief is that Gonzaga plays in a week conference and gets an easier road to a 1 seed. I personally agree. But you should also blame the PAC 12 for that. The way it is supposed to work is that the most dominant team out west should get the west #1 seed. Gonzaga is the most dominant team out west.

    However...... Gonzaga has proven over the last 10 or so years that they have consistently played up to their seeding. There is one year where they dramatically outplayed their seeding and one year that they definitely underperformed. Besides that, they have played to their seeding in the tournament.

    And you need to acknowledge that they do beat power 5 teams. An 80% winning percentage over power 5 teams is incredibly impressive. Especially when you consider that Gonzaga rarely gets to play these teams at home, and that they are typically against top half power conference teams as well. Gonzaga doesn’t play many power 5 cupcakes.
     
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  33. GE Nole

    GE Nole Well-Known Member
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    You’re spot on about Gonzaga. They are legit and it’s silly that people still can’t grasp that. Just look at the NBA success some of the their guys are having (you seen Sabonis lately?!).

    But I did want to at least mention that FSU was a shell of itself by the Sweet 16 last year. Phil Cofer and David Nichols hurt, Trent Forrest playing on a torn ligament that required April surgery. And Trent still willed FSU to within 3 or 4 against the Zags with like 4 minutes left.

    Basically, Gonzaga is the real deal and has been for 5+ years, but last year’s FSU game was a nice draw for them.
     
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  34. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    Good points. The Zags did have Tillie coming off injury, however. He was a bit rusty. Wasn't very effective. And he stole all of Petrusev's minutes. While Tillie was the overall better player last season, he wasn't quite himself in the tournament.

    Here's one more stat that shows how good - and how consistent Gonzaga has been over the past 6 seasons. 127-0 versus sub-100 teams. That might seem ho-hum to a lot of people, but if you play enough games, odds are you're going to lose a game or two. Kansas is the only other elite team to pull of this feat. Gonzaga's worst loss in this time period was to #80 BYU. Kansas's worst loss was to #98 Washington.

    [​IMG]

    Well stated.
     
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  35. dukedevilz

    dukedevilz Well-Known Member
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    ^ I excluded North Carolina's 2020 season, as that would obviously skew the numbers. Hard to lump this year in with the previous 5 seasons, where they were consistently in the top 5/10.
     
  36. Montana81

    Montana81 Well-Known Member
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    I would have had no problem sticking to
    I’ve essentially admitted they’re a top 10 program right now. Again my issue is that the committee and the media judge them differently every year. It’s impressive that they’ve never lost to a sub 100 team. I can admit that’s something that further validates their argument. But the WCC had 3 teams, out of 10, that were sub 200 in the net rankings. The power 5 and the big East combined had zero. The lowest was Nebraska at 199. The big East and big 12 had zero sub 100 teams.

    when the media is discussing this stuff on selection Sunday it’s often brought up how many quad 4 games teams played and they’re usually punished for it compared to other teams on their seed line. This is not the case with gonzaga. The fact they play nearly double the amount of those games of other teams and half as many quad 1 and 2 games as the other teams at the top is just ignored.

    I don’t know. Just doesn’t seem right.

    again if they were to just start seeding teams based on the actual strength of the team I’d have no problem with this just make sure you do it across the board and not just for 1 team. With Gonzaga it’s kind of like “well they don’t have as many quad 1 and 2 wins as the next several teams behind them that we’re going to judge and seed each other solely on, but they look like a 1 seed to us”. Then you go to Florida state who finished with 5 losses in the ACC and say “but they were only 6-4 in quad 1 games”. Nearly 2/3rds of Gonzaga’s schedule was against quad 3 and 4. Why are we ignoring that every year?
     
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  37. sdave

    sdave Well-Known Member
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    Michigan beat Gonzaga on a neutral court.
     
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  38. Bert Higginbotha

    Bert Higginbotha Well-Known Member
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    Good post Montana.

    The Zags are always seeded way, way too high.
     
  39. Original_Irish

    Original_Irish Well-Known Member
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    I agree with a lot of your points.

    I believe that Gonzaga is graded on a different curve than most power 5 teams. Basically, as long as they play well in their OOC, you can expect them to get a high seed as long as they roll through their conference. With that said, at least for this year, we have to give a little more credit to the WCC. BYU was looking at a top 5 seed and St. Mary's was going to be an 8-9 seed (USF was probably going to the NIT). Overall that is really good for the WCC.

    Here would be my counter arguments.

    1. The NCAA prioritizes high seeds geographically. If the Pac 12 had any elite teams (Like they should) then they would get seeded higher in the West region than Gonzaga every year. A down Pac 12 allows Gonzaga (and this year SDSU) to be seeded higher.

    2. Gonzaga has historically rewarded the bracket makers by living up to its seed. Gonzaga has the second most wins in the tournament the last 5 years. They have the longest active streak of getting to the Sweet 16, and have won 11 1st round games in a row. Their last 1st round loss was in 2008 to Steph Curry's Davidson team.

    Overall I think that people complain about the ranking that Gonzaga gets, but mostly just when they get 1 seeds. I think we make a big stink over something that no one would even care about if they were given a 2 seed instead. And if the Pac 12 would carry its weight like it is supposed to, then Gonzaga would probably be getting 2 seeds instead of 1 seeds.

    With all that, Gonzaga is going to be really stinking good next year.
     
  40. EvilMonkeyInTheCloset

    EvilMonkeyInTheCloset Well-Known Member
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    I bet if we played in the Big 12, we would've made our way to #1 as well.

    We'll also take our participation award for gifting you guys Isaiah Moss as you clearly needed his help more than Iowa did...............SmokinSmile
     

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