Can we all agree FSU's Tucker Center is now the hardest place to play in the country?
- Thread starter nole96
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First ACC home game next year would tie it.
I think it’s more the team than the venue itself but can’t argue with those results. How tf did y’all lose to UCF at home this year???
The Tuck is a tough environment, no question. They've had a really incredible stretch. If you're simply going by record, it's hard to ignore Gonzaga's 51 game home winning streak. If you're trying to gauge which team performs better at home, when you juxtapose their performances in road or neutral games, then the answer is Colorado.
51 game home winning streak is impressive, but you have to give FSU the edge here.
During this 76-4 run, the Noles have faced mostly major conference competition, while Gonzaga hasn't. Here is a list of some of the teams FSU was able to go 76-4 against:
Wake Forest
#21 Virginia Tech
Clemson
NC State
Boston College
#12 UNC
Louisville
Miami
#1 Duke
Syracuse
Georgia Tech
#11 Clemson
Louisville
Boton College
Minnesota
#21 Florida
Pittsburgh
#15 Notre Dame
Boston College
Florida
#19 Purdue
Miami
#7 Duke
Clemson
Georgia Tech
#16 Louisville
Boston College
Wake Forest
#25 Miami
Notre Dame
NC State
#15 Virginia Tech
Clemson
Indiana
#11 Louisville
Georgia Tech
Virginia
#25 Florida
Notre Dame
Miami
#12 Louisville
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
#2 Virginia
UNC
Georgia Tech
NC State
#20 Clemson
UNC
Miami
Wake Forest
#7 Virginia
Over this same span, Gonzaga has only had four major conference teams come to their place:
Washington
Washington
UNC
Texas A&M
What is more impressive, 76-2 against Gonzaga's list of opponents? Or 76-4 against FSU's?
Here's another way to look at it: Over this period of time, FSU has had visits from 18 ranked major conference teams. Gonzaga has had 0.
I'm not trying to disparage Gonzaga or anything they've been able to do. These are the opponents that were given to them. And they certainly aren't trying to duck anyone. They just find it hard to get good quality major conference opponents to pay a visit. With that said, all we can go by is the data that exists, and FSU's run has been much more impressive.
KU won 69 straight from 07-2011 and has 15 streaks of 20 or more.
And they hold the Guinness record for loudest indoor arena.
And they hold the Guinness record for loudest indoor arena.
I don't have to give FSU the edge. You can, if you'd like. It's debatable. I'm arguing that 51-0 is more impressive than 76-4. And in the past two years, you have exactly two home wins against KenPom top 25 teams. And one really bad loss against UCF.
Team went on Christmas break 1 half too early. We led by like 12 at half. Total collapse all around, with some bonkers shots at the end of the shot clock being made by UCF.
Disagree about the venue though. Tuck has really really good sight lines. Even opponents shoot well there. Look at Jay Heath last night raining in 7 or 8 threes. Kid from Wake made 7 or 8 too.
So FSU usually has a pretty good D and we always have great depth and athleticism. When you add in great shooting—which is what FSU does at home—we become nearly unbeatable.
FSU 3 point shooting at home this year - 42.6%
FSU opponent 3 point shooting at home - 36.4%
FSU 3 point shooting away from Tuck - 31.7%
FSU opponent 3 pt shooting away from Tuck - 27.6%
I don't have the numbers in front of me but Colorado always performs significantly better at home than they do on the road. Maybe it's personal for me because Oregon always loses in Boulder. Doesn't matter how good Oregon is or how mediocre CU is.
It's significant, for sure. Here are the numbers I've found from the past 6 seasons for Colorado
Colorado, 2015-16 - Present
Home: 78-14 (84.8%)
Road: 24-45 (34.8%)
Colorado hasn't won a single NCAA Tournament game over that time span, and yet they're winning at a rate that is on par with an elite program. It's comparable to Duke's home winning record over the last 6 years.
Duke, 2015-16 - Present
Home: 81-14 (85.3%)
Road: 29-21 (58.0%)
Obviously the difference between Colorado and Duke, is Duke can perform reasonably well on the road and neutral court sites. Not so much for CU. They are very dominant in Boulder, however. Logically, you'd think the elevation and distance is a major factor into why Colorado has such a huge boost at home. Maybe there are other factors? I just know I don't hesitate to pick Colorado when they're at home for the Pick 'Em games. Maybe there's more to it than simply the elevation? . And yes, Oregon has struggled mightily in Boulder. Didn't even realize how bad it's been. All-time you guys are 0-10 when visiting Colorado. Who would have thought CU could beat your dominant teams in 2016 & 2017?
The home court success of Florida State, or Gonzaga, or Kansas is fairly easy to explain. You naturally play better at home - and even more so when you have a dominant team. Colorado, however, is not a program that you'd naturally think wins 85% of their home games.
Most likely, yes. Several of the mountain schools have the biggest home court discrepancies in the country.
Good post, it's crazy when you lay it out like that.
2017 was the year that really got to me. Oregon went 16-2 in conference play (only other loss was a 3 point loss on the road vs. a 31-5 UCLA team) and lost to a CU team that went 8-10 in conference play and lost in the first round of the NIT. Of course, when they played in Eugene, Oregon beat them by 28. That building is a nightmare for Oregon basketball.
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6 of the top 11 schools in KenPom's Home Court Advantage rating have an elevation over 3,000 feet.
| Team | Conf | HCA | PF | Pts | NST | Blk | Elev | ||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Colorado | P12 | 4.9 | 1 | -4.8 | 14 | 12.2 | 3 | -1.5 | 60 | 1.6 | 79 | 5400 | 5 |
| West Virginia | B12 | 4.6 | 2 | -4.9 | 8 | 12.5 | 1 | -2.1 | 12 | 2.1 | 20 | 1000 | 58 |
| Texas Tech | B12 | 4.5 | 3 | -4.6 | 16 | 11.1 | 7 | -1.4 | 74 | 1.6 | 92 | 3200 | 20 |
| Air Force | MWC | 4.4 | 4 | -3.2 | 109 | 10.1 | 20 | -1.2 | 111 | 1.4 | 140 | 7000 | 2 |
| Memphis | Amer | 4.4 | 5 | -5.2 | 2 | 9.5 | 33 | -2.4 | 6 | 2.1 | 23 | 200 | 232 |
| New Mexico | MWC | 4.2 | 6 | -3.7 | 66 | 10.8 | 10 | -0.7 | 209 | 0.8 | 266 | 5100 | 7 |
| Utah St. | MWC | 4.2 | 7 | -3.3 | 101 | 11.2 | 6 | -0.1 | 296 | 1.8 | 56 | 4800 | 10 |
| North Carolina A&T | MEAC | 4.2 | 8 | -4.9 | 10 | 9.4 | 37 | -0.9 | 160 | 2.7 | 2 | 800 | 91 |
| Louisiana Tech | CUSA | 4.2 | 9 | -3.4 | 88 | 11.4 | 5 | -2.6 | 2 | 2.5 | 6 | 300 | 210 |
| Iowa | B10 | 4.1 | 10 | -5.0 | 7 | 9.3 | 39 | -0.9 | 167 | 2.1 | 20 | 700 | 113 |
| Utah | P12 | 4.1 | 11 | -3.0 | 128 | 10.5 | 14 | -1.8 | 29 | 0.6 | 299 | 4800 | 10 |
6 of the top 11 schools in KenPom's Home Court Advantage rating have an elevation over 3,000 feet.
lol that is crazy to lose to a mediocre team, then play them a few weeks later and crush them by almost 30. That 2017 team was stacked. Can only imagine how the tournament may have turned out had Boucher not been injured.
The biggest "what if" in Oregon Basketball.
I think how the PAC schedules games is a factor. They tend to do these two game road swings for teams. So a team will go play at Oregon on Thursday and then at Oregon State on Saturday. I get it, it’s intended to cut down on travel costs for a large geographic area conference.
But think about what that does for teams going to Colorado. It means teams are going to at Utah, and then at Colorado for two games in three days. Stanford did that this year, lost both. Oregon did it this year, went 1-1. California did this year, 1-1. USC did it this year, went 0-2. UCLA did it, went 1-1.
So essentially all these teams are making this two game swing, with both games at higher elevation. Stands to reason that they are fatigued by the end of the second game.
So curious, what do you think explains the difference between FSU’s home court and teams like Duke, UVA, UNC, Baylor, Michigan, etc.?
FSU has been a very good program but not quite at the level of those schools. And yet they win even more at home? I think it’s the sight lines.
Also, why has Duke played so many fewer road games as Colorado? More neutral site?
The home vs away psychological element is so intriguing to me.
It used to be extremely hard to win at the O’Dome and then we renovated and all of a sudden our record is (comparably) horrible there. Part of it can be attributed to going from Donovan to White, but our student section is one of the best in the country and after the renovation pretty much any team can play okay and win in Gainesville.
It used to be extremely hard to win at the O’Dome and then we renovated and all of a sudden our record is (comparably) horrible there. Part of it can be attributed to going from Donovan to White, but our student section is one of the best in the country and after the renovation pretty much any team can play okay and win in Gainesville.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense actually. As it stands, Utah and Colorado both have a substantial home court advantage in KenPom's ratings. The second game could really wear on teams. IIRC, the NCAA has an altitude adjustment of roughly 7 seconds a mile for elevations around 5,000 feet. For those not accustomed to playing at altitude, the fatigue is going to set in a lot quicker than they're expecting.
If you're going back the past 5 years, FSU has actually finished the season higher than Duke three times. Only in 2018 & 2019 did we finish ahead of you guys. Not sure why the winning percentage at the Tuck is off the charts, though. Perhaps the sight lines. That can certainly give added confidence to the players. I think the depth component is a huge swing, too. Seems like you guys still have a lot of tight contests at the Tuck, but you almost always seem to pull through in the final few minutes.
Coach K doesn't really play OOC road games anymore. Excluding the ACC/Big Ten Challenge games, I want to say St.John's has been the only major team we've faced on the road in the past decade. K believes the neutral court games simulate the NCAA Tournament better. I get that point, but still think college games largely deserved to be played on somebody's home court. You just can't replicate that type of atmosphere in a neutral court arena. Wish we could get back to the old days where we got the likes of LSU, Michigan, Georgetown, Oklahoma and UCLA on the road.
He's right, and I've always defended that. But I also think true road games help toughen up a team a little. We obviously get plenty of them in conference, but I wouldn't be too upset if we had at least one OOC road game each season. Just to see where the team is mentally.
I understand the rationale for it. Definitely makes sense. But, I think it's a little more nuanced than that. We tend to play a lot of neutral court games in the NYC/NJ area which is very pro-Duke. In the NCAAs, you have four teams per session. And that almost always means 75% of the crowd is rooting against Duke.
The tournament games are especially tough when they're played in ACC Country, as the animosity is strong. I can't ever forget the 2014 Mercer game held in Raleigh. That didn't feel like a de facto home game, or even a neutral court game. And the 2017 2nd Round game in Greenville against South Carolina was one of the most lopsided crowds I've ever seen. Not only did you have a large contingency of USC fans, who had a short drive - you also had plenty of ACC fans in the area which hated Duke. And the game prior to Duke-South Carolina, was UNC-Arkansas. UNC had a HUGE crowd. I want to say almost 90% of the crowd was rooting against Duke. There's definitely an element of truth to those neutral site games simulating tournament games, just seems like sometimes the games in the actual tournament are much more hostile than what you'd expect from a neutral court arena.
One thing I gotta say about the Pac-12, is I love the symmetry. Everyone has a sensible geographical pair. 2 Washington schools, 2 Oregon schools, 2 Bay Area schools, 2 LA Schools, 2 Arizona schools, and 2 mountain schools. And you could even break it up into quads - Washington/Oregon, California, States of the Four Corners. Gonzaga would make sense for the Pac-12, but they would break up that beautiful symmetry. Pretty sure that's why the Pac-12 hasn't offered an invite.
Impressive. A mere 60 games shy of UK's record.
That was a tough place to play indeed... in the 40s and 50s.
Kansas was one of the victims. 😁That was a tough place to play indeed... in the 40s and 50s.
I believe that was the West Virginia Monday night game when KU came from down 14 with 2 minutes left. The decibel record was set before tip off. Some late game moments of that game KU came close to reaching that record.
I wonder what the decibel level would have been during a big game 15-20 years ago. I’ll bet it would blow away the average game from the present. That place was absolutely deafening throughout a big game. As a kid, I took for granted how great it was.
It’s still a good experience, but just not the same.
