Can good coaching really turn bad players into average players?

Discussion in 'College Football Soundoff' started by DeputyDodge, Jul 12, 2019.

  1. DeputyDodge

    DeputyDodge Well-Known Member
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    I was listening to an ACC preview the other day and noted expert Riley Skinner was saying he thought FSU will among the most improved teams in the conference. He was basing this on the offensive staff changes Taggart made with Briles and the new OL coach. He said if we could get just average OL play we could get to 8-9 wins this year. While this got me a little pumped I must admit it also made me reflect on how truly awful that line was last year. I want to believe they can improve but it’s hard for me to imagine those guys getting any better.

    Can a new coordinator and position coach really transform an offensive line?
     
  2. TigersattheZOU

    TigersattheZOU Well-Known Member
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  3. UGADawg1988

    UGADawg1988 Well-Known Member
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    Right now FSU has nowhere to go but up. I do think that a good coach can improve the situation, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see FSU win 8 games this year. As bad as last year was, the Seminoles are still the second most talented team in the ACC, and sooner or later this will show in the win-loss column. It will get better.
     
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  4. DeputyDodge

    DeputyDodge Well-Known Member
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    Talented at every position but OL, my God they were bad and really not very talented. I’m trying to believe they can improve. I really am
     
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  5. UGADawg1988

    UGADawg1988 Well-Known Member
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    From a bad memory, I think that FSU signed 5 offensive linemen last year. That's far more than what's usually signed in an average class, so it looks like the coaches knew that there was an OL problem. So, while true freshmen usually don't help much on the lines, at least they'll be there and ready to play in 2020.
     
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  6. TigersattheZOU

    TigersattheZOU Well-Known Member
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    They wont be great but good coaching will make them better
     
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  7. BTSBuckeye

    BTSBuckeye Well-Known Member
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    Find it hard to believe that FSU has "bad players".

    Players not living up to potential due to coaching and/or scheme ... sure.
    But flat out BAD players? Meh ... leery on that one.

    You have to go pretty far down the recruiting list to get teams who are recruiting straight "bad players" who aren't coachable to a "decent" level.
     
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  8. Stochdoc

    Stochdoc Well-Known Member
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    Good coaching can lead to significant player improvement. Average players can become good players - we saw that at Indiana when Tom Allen became the DC. The defense went from horrible to upper half rankings in one season. We had several defensive players drafted. The last time this happened was under Bill Mallory.
     
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  9. TeganInBama

    TeganInBama Well-Known Member
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    Yep. You see it at QB all the time. Chris Todd, Auburn fans?
     
    9 TeganInBama, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  10. CB3UK

    CB3UK Well-Known Member
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    It cant hurt. Depends on the effort the bad players will put in.
     
  11. RedGentDawg

    RedGentDawg Well-Known Member
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    I think so.

    Georgia, for example, is not the same without Sam Pittman. Not saying he's coaching up scrubs at all, he's assembled an impressive group of oline talent, but the fact remains that he coaches them up too.

    If FSU's new coaches can get them to just decent performance, it should have the compound effect of attracting better talent, making the process easier in the future.
     
  12. NoleOne

    NoleOne Well-Known Member
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    I don’t disagree with this assessment. FSU had talent at many positions in ‘18 but was completely devoid of talent, experience and depth at OL and LB. Offensive coaching was as bad as I have ever seen.
     
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  13. DeputyDodge

    DeputyDodge Well-Known Member
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    Oklahoma has a new DC from Ohio State. It'll be interesting to see what he can do with that defense.
     
  14. terriblelie

    terriblelie Well-Known Member
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    I have to say yes.
    I’m sure it won’t be an immediate
    difference mistakes will be made.
    But overall , good coaching will
    Make the difference.
    Miami has the same OL problems
    Fsu has. So it will be interesting to watch
    both teams improve.


    GO CANES!!!!
     
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  15. Deathroll

    Deathroll Well-Known Member
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    Good question. Or maybe it’s more like “how much is talent and how much is development?”

    Some guys are gonna be stars no matter who their coach is. There are a lot IMO who could go either way depending on coaching. It depends on the position. QBs and OL in particular seem to be built more than born. RBs are definitely a case of you have it or you don’t. I tend to think Defensive Linemen are more a case of natural talent rather than development. Some great corners are just natural but I’ve seen good coaching be able to develop a lot of good DBs who weren’t necessarily all that highly rated.
     
  16. Deathroll

    Deathroll Well-Known Member
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    I can tell you from the Chump years, once you really wreck an OL, it takes years to fix. From 2015 until last season, our OL was either godawful or below average. Last year I’d say we improved all the up to slightly above average. That was after four seasons of crap play on the OL.
     
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  17. Deathroll

    Deathroll Well-Known Member
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    Just wait until Ohio State makes a truly bad coaching hire. You will be amazed.

    I used to think like you. Then we hired Chump.
     
  18. 12Ghost12

    12Ghost12 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, absolutely. And that will allow the win total to improve. The problem comes when you face better players who also are getting good coaching.
     
  19. BTSBuckeye

    BTSBuckeye Well-Known Member
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    I don't think you caught what I was saying. I was essentially affirming that coaching can make a difference.

    Hence FSU's aren't bad players, rather poorly coached and schemed.
     
  20. Matte Black

    Matte Black Well-Known Member
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    Absolutely, Clemson's run is built on slightly above average players being great. I believe Renfrow, Guillermo, Vic Beasley, Spencer Shuey, Ferrell, Jordan Leggette, BJ Goodson, Grady Jarrett, Isaiah Simmons were all 3 stars or below.
     
  21. Deathroll

    Deathroll Well-Known Member
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    There’s that but when you have a really bad coach, they can’t recruit worth a damn either. Chump signed three 4 star WRs in four years. Two of those three were busts. We had to use a couple of 2 star Defensive Ends at TE. Both of them had stone hands. TE drops alone cost us two games. We had statistically THE worst kicker in America. And his Offensive Line recruiting was worse than this. When he was finally fired, he left us with 6 healthy OL on the roster. Only 1 of those 6 was a legitimate SEC caliber starter. The others were all beaten out by true freshmen. They never amounted to anything either so it’s not like their sucky play was attributable to merely bad coaching. They were just lousy players.

    As for fsu, I think their OL really is straight garbage. I’m not sold on their LB and WRs either except for that one freshman WR from Georgia they had last year.
     
  22. Deathroll

    Deathroll Well-Known Member
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    Well now wait a minute.....I’d say 5 star DL by the boatload who panned out, several highly rated WRs and running backs who panned out and 4 star Deshaun Watson and the 5 star chick you have playing QB now had one helluva lot to do with it.
     
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  23. BTSBuckeye

    BTSBuckeye Well-Known Member
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    Would those players have failed as hard at say ... Wisconsin?
    Historical evidence might suggest that possibly not.

    Developing players is part of coaching. That's what Head Coaches get paid to do ... hire coaches who can go out and recruit talent they feel they can develop into good players.

    That's why not every school targets the exact same elite players. They aren't always the perfect fit for what a program is trying to do. Recruiting a 5* WR who runs a 4.3 but isn't physical might not be the right call if your system requires pass blocking at the WR position.

    That's why recruiting rankings have to be taken with a grain of salt.
     
  24. EppsTiger615

    EppsTiger615 Well-Known Member
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    I think good coaching can help cover up less talented units better. As noted, the FSU OL really can't get worse and they have talent around them. I don't think you can necessarily make a BAD player into a GOOD player, but I side with Skinner here. I wouldn't be surprised to see FSU win 8 games. They need their defense to play a lot smarter too though.
     
  25. Arrogant_Bastard

    Arrogant_Bastard Well-Known Member
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    It may be something as simple as just putting them in a better position to succeed. Scheme plays a big role in getting the best out of players.
     
  26. littlerugger

    littlerugger Well-Known Member
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    Yes

    You can improve strength with the weight room
    You can improve speed with training
    You can improve game intelligence with studying
    You can even improve reflexes with training

    All of this can be done with coaching - coaching staff. The only thing you can't do is make a kid taller.
     
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  27. BTSBuckeye

    BTSBuckeye Well-Known Member
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    Speak for yourself ....

    [​IMG]
     
  28. CardX

    CardX Well-Known Member
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    Absolutely! Coaching matters.
     
  29. Matte Black

    Matte Black Well-Known Member
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    Sure that helps some...
     
  30. sheluvsbama

    sheluvsbama Well-Known Member
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    Some people are not inclined that way in spite of good coaching.
     
  31. arockthief

    arockthief Well-Known Member
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    Why are bad players on the team in the first place?
     
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  32. TeganInBama

    TeganInBama Well-Known Member
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    Good post, but I think RB's at the college level are helped out by the scheme more than any other position.
     
  33. Duckdude73

    Duckdude73 Moderator
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    I have wondered that nearly every season I’ve watched us at the kicker and punter positions lol.
     
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  34. DeputyDodge

    DeputyDodge Well-Known Member
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    Recruiting misses, especially on the OL for us. Trickett rarely landed a blue chipper. I think we had average linemen who were too young to be thrown in a lot of times. We had guys playing out of position, with no confidence. I’m hopeful Briles’ OL guy can help them.
     
  35. Duckdude73

    Duckdude73 Moderator
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    I’d say QB even moreso. Can you imagine a statue running the wishbone, or some of the option QB’s being asked to be a traditional drop back passer?
     
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  36. Deathroll

    Deathroll Well-Known Member
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    I dunno. I can name guys who would have been stars if you or I had been their coach and the Offense was Power I one year and run n’ shoot the next. Some guys just have “it”. You feel that in your bones as soon as you see them.
     
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  37. BTSBuckeye

    BTSBuckeye Well-Known Member
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    The be fair ... that is literally THE toughest position to evaluate talent at.

    You really need a good coach at that position who can identify guys who they feel confident can be developed around the offense.
     
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  38. LetsAllWhine

    LetsAllWhine Well-Known Member
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    Pick a sport and the answer is yes.
     
  39. Jay1187

    Jay1187 Well-Known Member
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    @TallyGator83, DR knows Terry!! I thought I was being a homer in the other thread but someone knows him :)
     
  40. Deathroll

    Deathroll Well-Known Member
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    I’m not saying that guy is a star but that looked like the only one in the WR corps who gave y’all a spark.
     

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