“Gonzaga’s Era May Be Over”
- Thread starter Random UK Fan
- Start date
Two ridiculous suggestions in that article. 1) That Gonzaga has been the best program in the country in recent years and 2) that it’s “over.”
Why I don't want Gonzaga in the Big 12 is because who knows what they will be when Few is gone.
I really don't see Gonzaga joining the Big 12. Just seems like a weird fit. The PAC at least makes a little more sense geographically but I think they're going to stay in the WCC. They have a very similar profile to the other universities in the WCC.
KenPom metrics have them as the 1st or 2nd best team in CBB, in 5 of the past 7 years...
8 straight SW 16's
5 Elite 8's
2 FF's
2 Runner-ups...
I mean, who has been better? 223-24.
Ridiculous probably wasn’t the right word, but I don’t think they have the best case for it, even during a timeframe that was cherry-picked to put them in the best light. KU has two final fours in that span too, but with a title. They both have the exact same seed average (1.83) but KU did it in a much tougher league. They also would have been the overall 1 in 2020.
The only advantage Gonzaga has is a few more tourney wins, and I don’t think anyone would take that over a national title.
8 straight SW 16's
5 Elite 8's
2-runner-ups
2 FF's
Who's had a better, OVERALL 8 year stretch?
KU in that same stretch...
One title
2 FF's
2 Elite 8's
3 Second round losses.
Does ONE title make KU better, or equal?
KU has three elite 8s and was ranked higher by every single metric in 2020.
I think you’re arguing for the sake of arguing here. I don’t buy for a second that you believe that having a few more tourney wins is better than having a title.
Few more tourney wins? Since 2014/15
They have 2 more ELite 8's....
Four more 16's
One more title game...
KU has lost in the 2nd round 4 times.
Ok, KU was better in 2020....This isn't about one year---Its baout the past 8.
FTR, GU has 25 NCAAT wins....KU 20.
I think you are arguing because you're similar to some UK fans---If someone doesn't feel KU is the best, you wanna argue.
Minus the title, how has KU been better ?
Edit---FTR, Gonzaga was 31-2 in 2020.. Had wins vs #11 Oregon, @ #22 Washington, @ #15 Arizona.
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First, what time period are we talking about? The writer was referring to since the start of the 2016-17 season. If you add an extra year, that only helps KU. They were the overall 1 that year and went to the elite 8. Gonzaga was an 11 that went to the S16. I think that would make 22 tourney wins to 19 for KU.
Come on, man. You can’t tell me you’d trade a national title to be able to say you averaged 3.1 tourney wins/yr vs 2.7. Especially when you factor in that KU would have been the favorite in 2020 and was rated over 3 points higher than Gonzaga and every other team on Kenpom.
For Gonzaga to overcome 0 titles, they’d need to blow KU away in the other areas. They haven’t at all. I think you’re arguing this just to argue. If the resumes were reversed, you’d be arguing the opposite.
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Take every champion in the past 7 years, and pick from that list. Any one you want.
Kind of missing the point of the article to argue whether Gonzaga has been the best team or the 2nd best team over that time period.
That said, their point was stupid so continue with the argument.
That said, their point was stupid so continue with the argument.
Its not about A TITLE, over a few more wins. Of course I wouldn't trade.
GU has more overall wins..
GU has more NCAAT wins
GU has more Elite 8's(5-3)
GU has more Sw 16's(8-4. THis isn't close)
GU has more title game appearances(2-1)
Kansas has four, 2nd round losses---GU has none.
Are you saying since GU hasn't won the title, it makes KU better, OVERALL?
I disagree.
The writer was talking about the last 7 years. Which included six tourneys. And you’re really comparing overall wins between teams from the B12 and WCC? Maybe we should compare wins vs ranked teams?
Team A:
1 NC
2 FF
3 E8
3 S16
6 R32
16 tourney wins
Avg seed: 1.83
#1 in every metric in Covid year
Team B:
0 NC
2 FF
5 E8
6 S16
6 R32
20 tourney wins
Avg seed: 1.83
I’d be surprised if more than 5% of people would choose team B. This is an AuHoosier take and I think you know it.
Yes?
If only success was measured by who almost did what. I would rather make 1 Final Four with one championship than make 10 with none.
Sure....But that doesn't mean you were better over that time frame. Its not what you would want/prefer. Its about who has been better over a time frrame....If you think winning a title makes you better overall, that is fine. I don't.
I mean UVA won the title in 2019.....Have they been equal to Kansas overall the past 8 years, in the NCAAT?
If KU had not won the title last year, I bet the majority of fans on this board would take UVA's last 8 years over KU's last 8 years. Both have been great in the regular season but titles are what matter in this sport. If they cared about best team winning, they wouldn't use a single elimination tourney to determine the champ.
Only in a subjective way could you argue that Gonzaga has been better than Kansas in your time frame. It could be argued that Kansas has had the luxury of being over seeded. But it cannot be argued that Gonzaga hasn't been.
I don't care how its sliced, TBH....Numbers are what they are. There is nothing subjective about my take. The numbers tell the story.
More wins...
More NCAAT wins
More Elite 8's
More Sw 16's
More Championship game appearances
NO 1st or 2nd round losses.
But because KU won a title, they have been better, OVERALL?
How?
Determining who was “better” is definitely subjective.
You act like you’re comparing a perennial juggernaut to an average program that had one lucky run. Each team’s had exactly four 1 seeds, one 3 and one 4. Both would have been a 1 in the Covid year. Doesn’t exactly get closer than that, in terms of consistency. And if you go back 8 years, like you have been, they have the same number of Elite 8s and same number of final fours.
So yeah, when the next most important markers are equal, a national championship makes a good tiebreaker. Moves the needle a lot more than having a few more tourney wins.
If you want to argue that Gonzaga’s been slightly more consistent, I could see that. KU had a pretty average team in ‘21, and the ‘19 team limped to a 4 seed after losing Azubuike and Vick. But more accomplished? Doubt you’ll get many to side with you on that.
Take the tournament out of the equation, Kansas has far and away the better resume and play in a power conference. Make the tournament part of the equation, Kansas is the only one to win the tournament. It's all subjective.
Except for the part where KenPom has GU #1 or 2 in 5 of the past 7 years...
If you think ONE tournaments trumps SEVEN tournaments---Ok.
I'm comparing numbers....Its not rocket algebra.
GU has more NCAAT wins----Check
GU has more Elite 8's---Check
GU has more SW 16's---Check
GU has more National title game appearances---Check
Tied with FF's--push
KU has a title----KU
KU has lost in the 2nd round 4 times----Gonzaga none.
So Kansas is more accomplished, OVERALL, because they have ONE title, and GU has none?
You are putting an awful lot of weight on that title....I mean FOUR 2nd round losses?
You wanna use the title as a "tie breaker", but totally dismiss the 4 Second Round losses by KU..
EvilMonkeyInTheCloset
Well-Known Member
You’re highlighting a few numbers and some of those numbers aren’t even accurate. You have to go back 9 years to find four 2nd round losses for KU and that would also give them another Elite 8.
You’re acting like there’s an established formula, which is apparently is just adding up total tournament wins.
Last 8 years:
Both have made every tournament. Both have 4 Elite 8s. Both have two final fours. Both would have been 1 seeds in 2020. KU’s average seed in that period was higher. KU won a NC and Gonzaga has not.
Gonzaga’s only advantage in that span is having three more tourney wins (and thus three more S16 appearances). So basically your argument is that winning 2nd round games is more important than winning national championships.
Teams win championships. Conferences don't. Using a single elimination tourney to determine who is the best team or best conference is flawed. I'm usually just trolling out of boredom if I say anything different on here.
Funny thing about this argument is that it’s the exact opposite of Indiana fans’ usual takes. They all believe that Indiana should still have blueblood status, but the only way to justify that is by giving a ton of weight to their title count. They're way behind UK/KU/Duke/UNC/UCLA in pretty much everything else.
Half as many title game appearances as the others, half as many final fours (UNC has almost 3x as many), and about 50 fewer tourney wins than any of the bluebloods (64 fewer than UNC/Kentucky).
If Gonzaga has been the best program in recent years, then Indiana is definitely not a blueblood. Can't have it both ways.
Half as many title game appearances as the others, half as many final fours (UNC has almost 3x as many), and about 50 fewer tourney wins than any of the bluebloods (64 fewer than UNC/Kentucky).
If Gonzaga has been the best program in recent years, then Indiana is definitely not a blueblood. Can't have it both ways.
